Santa Cruz’s Keegan Swenson, Amber Pierce, and Ivy Audrain join Coach Jonathan for a discussion on what they do to maintain consistency, how to manage expectations after disappointing early season races, what to do if you’ve experienced a lot of improvement in the Base Phase, Keegan’s plans for the course record at Epic Rides’ 24 Hours in the Old Pueblo and much more!

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Jonathan Lee: Welcome to the podcast is dedicated to making you a faster cyclist. The ask a cycling coach podcast presented by train road and coach Jonathan Lee. We have trainer road in Cannondale’s. Amber Pierce. Good morning everybody. We have hand up plus the black bibs racing’s IVF drain. Nice. I nailed it. Now you can change your team name out now, now that I finally got it, you can change your team.

[00:00:35] Jonathan Lee: And we also have Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz, Ram Rafa, lots of different sponsors, Teagan Swinson. What’s up Keegan. Hey, thanks for having me, uh, current American national champion in cross country, mountain biking, as well as, uh, short track cross country as well and Leadville champion. And now you’re getting ready to take on the lifetime grand Prix.

[00:00:58] Keegan Swenson: Yeah, yeah. Looking forward to

[00:01:00] Jonathan Lee: it. We’re going to get into that later and we’ll get into lots of other stuff. Um, but for those that are listening in, we appreciate you. You can subscribe to this podcast. So auto downloads and you don’t miss an episode on whatever platform using. You can rate the podcast. We would love that you can share it with people.

[00:01:14] Jonathan Lee: Also, we would love that for everybody joining us on YouTube. Good to have you. You can join in Thursdays at 8:00 AM Pacific and give this video a thumbs up right now, if you’re watching on YouTube, because that makes it so that other cyclists will also find it. They’ll say, Hey, this person likes cycling content and they liked this video.

[00:01:29] Jonathan Lee: I’m going to find other people that like cycling content and give it to them right now. And that’s how it works. So, uh, check that out. Uh, we are going to cover a handful of things today. We’re going to talk about consistency and what each of these really high profile athletes do, uh, or high level athletes, I should say, do to maintain consistency or what they’ve done at different points in their career to maintain consistency.

[00:01:50] Jonathan Lee: When it was challenging. Don’t talk about disciplining races and how to manage expectations. We’re also going to talk about peaking too early, or perhaps better said kind of. When you really have just your firing through the base phase and you see a whole lot of improvement, what that means for the rest of your season.

What has changed about Keegan’s training this year

[00:02:06] Jonathan Lee: We’re also going to talk about lots of other things too. Uh, but just the same, uh, let’s kick this thing off really quick. Keegan. I wanted to do a catch-up with you because I think it’s been somewhere around five months or so since you’ve been on the podcast, it’s been awhile. Maybe that’s not right. Um, it has been awhile.

[00:02:21] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. It has been awhile. This is the first podcast Amber and Keegan have done together. I know this is exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Celebratory times, uh, Keegan, I want to talk about your season. You were cross-country guy. Now you are a gravel guy, but you’re also cross country guys still at the same time. So what have you changed about your training?

[00:02:42] Jonathan Lee: Like what’s changed going from 90 minute XCO being your main thing is you are working toward a Tokyo qualification is your main goal. Now you’ve got things like bounds that could be 10 to 12 hours for you depending on conditions. Yeah.

[00:02:58] Keegan Swenson: I mean, as of like, I mean over the winter, like December, January, February, hasn’t changed a whole lot.

[00:03:05] Keegan Swenson: Um, just a bit more volume and it seems like we backed off the intensity a little bit. Um, the, I mean, in general, I do do like a fair bit of volume for like a cross-country athlete. So I think we’re just adding, I mean, I did a couple of hours here and there more six hour rides, a couple of seven or eight hour rides.

[00:03:22] Keegan Swenson: Um, and then I did do like a big nine day block as well. Um, just to kinda like do something completely different from what I’ve done in the past and kind of shock the system a bit.

[00:03:33] Jonathan Lee: How many of those nine days?

[00:03:36] Keegan Swenson: Uh, 41,

[00:03:40] Jonathan Lee: um, how many, and what were you doing in that time? Like, did you have interval structure or was it all just pretty much every

[00:03:48] Keegan Swenson: day had structure the only day there was two days, I guess there was two, four days we had to shoot outs in that block.

[00:03:55] Keegan Swenson: Um, so that’s just a pride, which is intensity. Yeah. And then the non-structured days, the other one was like a four hour hardened during the day and plus some call it and then the other one was just, uh, ended up being seven and a half hour, like just kind of regular endurance day. So otherwise the rest of that block was filled with,

[00:04:15] Jonathan Lee: okay, I’ve lost Ivy and I’ve risked both at the same face, just a regular seven and a half hour endurance days, which you said, is that correct?

[00:04:23] Jonathan Lee: Yeah,

[00:04:24] Ivy Audrain: I feel so bad. I didn’t realize that my face was like for people on Spotify or otherwise, I’m just making a very perplexed

[00:04:34] Amber Pierce: kind of grumpy face. I can’t believe I’m mad because I did you say 41. Yeah,

[00:04:40] Ivy Audrain: for one, I don’t think I, I was doing math. I don’t think I sleep 41 hours in nine days.

[00:04:53] Jonathan Lee: So when you’re doing, how much, so did you do, what sort of interval work did you do in that week to just say, I find that this is probably interesting to give like an average athlete insight into what you do when you do a high volume camp. And I hope this goes without saying, but, uh, don’t try this at home.

[00:05:12] Jonathan Lee: Right. That’s the saying like, uh, what he does is what he does. It isn’t necessarily what we should do, but with that said, it’s still interesting. So what sort of like, where are you doing a sweet spot where you doing VO two where you fresher?

[00:05:23] Keegan Swenson: Um, so basically just did sweet spot and threshold. Pretty much every day there was something like the shootout was day number one.

[00:05:33] Keegan Swenson: And then Sunday we did two by 20 LTS with some tempo warmup and some other stuff. And that was, that was honestly the hardest day for me. Cause I hadn’t, I haven’t done any pendant, any LT work before this camp. So when Kyle was like a little kick in the teeth, I was like, oh man, this is pretty brutal. And then it’s funny that like a few days later we’d done some split few sweet-spot workouts, like to buy thirties, whatever.

[00:05:55] Keegan Swenson: And then that later that Friday. Um, the queen stage as my coach called it, that one was three by 20 LT. And I felt better that day that I did on my T by twenties. And I think for me, a lot of it’s just like getting used to that, like that feeling of going that hard. Um, I don’t know, certain point you get fatigued and you just kinda like, you just stay in this hole and it’s like, it’s kind of fine.

[00:06:20] Keegan Swenson: You just, you wake up and you do it. And I don’t know, it’s weird how you can just, just keep going. And then the day after the camp ends, you’re, you’re just done, you know, but even at that shootout, like I still felt pretty decent. Didn’t have as much snap to the legs, obviously, as I normally would, but like still, yeah, it was, it was a good something different, you know, I’ve never done anything like that.

[00:06:39] Keegan Swenson: And like that made days of that arrest day and like constant almost every day, it was over 200 TSS. So it was like every day it was pretty, pretty big. And the big days were over 300. So it was like, it was a lot, you know, but it was like, how cool there’s something different and, uh, kinda shock the system with different style of training and a bunch of sweet spot.

[00:06:59] Keegan Swenson: And I don’t really do like, I’ll ride the sweet spot here and there, but I haven’t, I haven’t done like a lot of structured sweet spot. Um, I think that was one thing we’re going to add in a bit more, especially on the flats for me, that’s like learning how to put down like that big sweet spot power, like going like 30 plus miles an hour on the flats is something that I would always need to work on.

[00:07:19] Keegan Swenson: And I think it’s important to these growler races. Right? So, um, yeah, that was, that was the camp. And luckily, uh,

[00:07:29] Jonathan Lee: at the end, Amber both want to chime in how many days

[00:07:31] Amber Pierce: you have to take

[00:07:32] Ivy Audrain: off how many days you have to shell out

[00:07:34] Jonathan Lee: after that?

[00:07:34] Keegan Swenson: Um, I took one day off and then took two, like recovery ride days. And then it was actually going pretty good.

[00:07:44] Keegan Swenson: Like the shootout, the next weekend was one of my, like, I felt really good that weekend. So I think I’d say it was like maybe four days of chilling.

[00:07:58] Keegan Swenson: It was like, it didn’t stop. You know, like after the camp, the whole camp, I was trying to eat as much as I could to stay on top of it. And then it was just like, fire just kept burning for a few days and then finally feel like I got caught up. But

[00:08:10] Amber Pierce: yeah, I just wanted to jump in and share with listeners who might not be familiar.

[00:08:14] Amber Pierce: The shadow is a really well-known group ride. It’s a very fast kind of race simulation group ride. So when we’re mentioning shootout, that’s what we’re referring

[00:08:22] Keegan Swenson: to. Pretty, pretty special. And it’s one of the coolest group reds. I mean, I’d argue in the world we have in here in Tucson. I mean, it’s like a nice gentle, like between one and 3% climb with a couple of little bumps and it’s like a 40 minute segment.

[00:08:35] Keegan Swenson: The road is pretty straight, no stoplights and stop signs, very little traffic. Very little traffic and it’s just full gas. That’s cool. Cat one pro race every weekend.

[00:08:48] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. You have like Ben Hoffman, Sam long, like these like really good, like old, like long distance trap. And then you’ll have, you know, even like ITU athletes on the tri side will show up and do it.

[00:09:00] Jonathan Lee: And then you have every type of cyclist you could imagine as well mixed.

[00:09:04] Keegan Swenson: It was like last weekend we had like the project echelon team is in town doing a camp. So those guys, their whole squad was there. We, the Fort Lewis cycling team there, but there was just cool to have like the variety there’s XCO athletes like everyone.

[00:09:18] Keegan Swenson: So,

[00:09:20] Jonathan Lee: and then it’s cool because you ride hard. And then after that, everyone like has a truce at a certain point on the course and everyone kind of regroups and you chill and like ride at a slower pace. Forgive me. And then after that, you kind of loop back around to the same road you were on just going the other way.

[00:09:38] Jonathan Lee: And then the gas is back on again at the end and there’s even like options or people like add on to it. It’s really cool. So, um, another thing I want to say. So you mentioned that you don’t do a whole lot of structured sweet spot, but you spend a lot of time riding in what you call an a plus, which is like just above endurance.

[00:09:54] Jonathan Lee: So you’re in tempo zone, right? Which, uh, many people say is the gray zone and you’re wasting your time Keegan. So I don’t know why you ride there, but, um, just, but just the same, you spend a lot of time riding close to sweet spot and around. But you don’t necessarily do a lot of you. Hadn’t done a whole lot of structured work there before.

[00:10:14] Jonathan Lee: Is that like an accurate assessment? And I do.

[00:10:16] Keegan Swenson: That’s when I do do a lot of times I’m done the most sweet spot is kind of opening openers for races. Like let’s say like, I’m kind of tapering for a race. I’ll have like, like PVC days early in the week. And then like the Friday before I’ll do like three by 10 sweet spot as an opener with like some one minute Voq efforts as well.

[00:10:33] Keegan Swenson: And for me, like that sweet spot is a good zone to kind of get, get everything opened up without like causing too much fatigue in the legs. Um, yeah. Than those plus rides. Like I’ll ride naked, kind of a hardened Duran’s pace on the flats. And then if I feel like going harder at the climbs or ride like tempo, maybe tapping like bump off sweet spot a little bit here and there.

[00:10:52] Keegan Swenson: Um, yeah, so it’s like I’m in that zone a bit, but I’m not always like, we’re not always doing structure. And if that makes sense. Yeah, for sure. I think, I think it’s like a pretty important zone, especially for like marathon mountain bike and gravel racing. Like I bet you spend 80% of the race in that zone.

[00:11:12] Keegan Swenson: And then there’s really hard, like five to 10 minute sections, or there might be like a 20 minute, 30 minute climb. That’s your riding threshold. But otherwise you’re riding in that. I guess it’d be, I don’t know, like 70% of threshold or so. Right. Like you’re just in that zone where it’s like, not quite tempo, but it’s like hard endurance and you’re just kind of like floating in and out of it.

[00:11:31] Keegan Swenson: So I think getting used to riding in that zone is pretty important. And then after awhile it just becomes like, just becomes easy. It just becomes endurance to a certain point like that. We, that one, that one four-hour hard endurance ride over that nine day block. And we’re also not, we’re both like, oh man, we get a recovery day.

[00:11:49] Keegan Swenson: This is sweet. Just have to go ride 270 Watts for four hours. Like your brain just gets used to it. Oh, this is easy. Now we just can cruise. You know? So I think when you get used to it, it’s, it just becomes normal, which I think is good.

[00:12:04] Jonathan Lee: Yes. Sweet spot is surprisingly race specific to old people. Having taken like an analytical eye toward their racing, even in something like cross country, even in something like, uh, or quit racing, perhaps not as much, but like cross country racing in particular, it’s like sweet spot racing.

[00:12:19] Jonathan Lee: But the difference is where you do your structured sweet-spot work. This will have in between, instead of rest in between, you’ll have constant interruptions of spikes, but then you’ll be sitting in, and I say that in air quotes at, at that sweet spot efforts, certainly doesn’t feel like you’re sitting in.

[00:12:35] Jonathan Lee: So, um, you did that. You also went out and did the, the spirit quest as well. Is that fair to say? So from the spirit of gravel yeah. Spirit hunt. Okay. You’re on a quest to hunt, we found it. And if it’s hunting, did you also, did you dispatch the spirit of gravel as well? Is that the, was that the point?

[00:12:53] Keegan Swenson: I think we’ve, we’ve made friends with the spirit of gravel now.

[00:12:56] Keegan Swenson: I think we found the true spirit. So

[00:12:59] Jonathan Lee: what was this?

[00:13:02] Keegan Swenson: This was something, um, Russell and I, uh, last year we’d like cooked up this idea to go do like a, say three or four day camp in Southern Arizona. And last year was actually just going to be on road bikes at green. I ride down through Patagonia and Bisbee and like all these other little towns down there.

[00:13:19] Keegan Swenson: And then some nasty weather came in and it rained and it were like our to stop. I’m not going to bother with that right now. So then, uh, I got into, we started racing and all of a sudden we left Tucson and we never ended up doing. So this year, we’re like, oh, we should do not try and do that again, but make it a gravel camp.

[00:13:37] Keegan Swenson: Cause I kind of feel like when I raised a gravel bike, it feels like almost foreign to me. Like it’s something that I haven’t spent a lot of time on. I’m not like I can go fast on it and I’m not really comfortable with like, like the position’s a little different descending is different. Like you have all these small intricacies that like, you’re not quite used to the tire pressure.

[00:13:55] Keegan Swenson: Like you just don’t, it’s just, I’m not familiar with it, you know? Um, so that was already like, oh, let’s just spend, we’ll do four days and do like, see if we can do like six hours every day and just get used to the bikes and have some fun and go see some cool stuff. So Russell mapped out this route ended up being about, I think about 400 miles over some very rugged drought, gravel.

[00:14:17] Keegan Swenson: And I knew like, Russell’s like, ah, like road shoes will be fine at 38 forties, see tires, it’ll be fine. Everything’s fine. And there was some baby heads and some chunk and like, it was cool. There were some days where it was like, oh, this is pretty, pretty slow moving then there’s also some really fast, smooth, cool gravel.

[00:14:34] Keegan Swenson: Um,

[00:14:37] Jonathan Lee: yeah. Yeah. We should clarify, thrown a lot

[00:14:43] Amber Pierce: out a lot of glossary terms here. Yeah,

[00:14:45] Jonathan Lee: exactly. So with that, what did you learn from that camp?

[00:14:52] Keegan Swenson: Yeah, I mean, I guess we kind of learned, um, I mean for the big thing, like we learned, like, I guess you just get used to sitting on the bike so long, you get beat up and like you’re out there.

[00:15:02] Keegan Swenson: You know, like the biggest day was we were, it was like seven and a half hours, but you’re carrying all your stuff. Like we weren’t camping. We were in Airbnbs and hotels. So it was pretty light, like just as a saddlebag and bar bag and stuff. So it was pretty minimal, but it still adds an extra, like, I don’t know, probably 25 pounds, especially when you have all the water.

[00:15:21] Keegan Swenson: And we’re also trying to figure out like kind nutrition and hydration, like kinda what we can get away with. I think some of these races, you have to push the limits of like, what, like maybe you’re not getting optimal amount of water or whatever, but maybe it’s faster. And like, I’m not like standing up telling people that train dehydrated, but I think there is like a time and place like experiment with that stuff and like push the limits of what you think you actually need and what you can get away with.

[00:15:46] Keegan Swenson: Um, and we also wrote pretty hard. I mean, every day we were trying to ride, you know, I think we rode like between GRE and 30 and turned 50 Watts with like some hard efforts of climbs, just because we go we’re six hours in let’s race up this climb to see what it feels like to go that hard seven hours to a, to a hard ride, you know?

[00:16:07] Keegan Swenson: Um, so yeah, that was, it was cool. It was a good way to get in a big solid training block and get comfortable on the bikes and. Can I see some cool terrain. So I think you can mix fun with adventure and training all at the same time, if you do it right?

[00:16:22] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. Well, these cross country, mountain bikers that used to just like run in little circles and now they’re doing big things, like a big adventurous routes.

[00:16:30] Jonathan Lee: I was released

[00:16:30] Keegan Swenson: from our cage, you know? And it’s like, it’s cool. Cause it’s training. Like maybe they need 24 hours. It’s four days of riding, you know, which is like a pretty big block. And with

[00:16:43] Jonathan Lee: cross country Olympic, you have to be much more like structured and specific about a lot of what you do. Whereas with gravel is a whole lot more of it is building endurance and everything else like you’re doing.

[00:16:52] Jonathan Lee: So, yeah, it makes sense. Especially when you’re talking about performing at the front end, because you’re not showing up to a single one of those races not to win it, you know? So that’s like a, a slightly different approach than if you’re just going to finish it. Right. Um, and even get like a good personal time.

[00:17:07] Jonathan Lee: It’s very different than what you do to, to win it and to beat everybody else.

[00:17:11] Keegan Swenson: So, yeah. And there’s a lot of small intricacies that go into these like long, like eight, 10 hour races, like sure. You can get away with training for five to six hours. I think there’s a lot you can learn about like maybe your bike set up is not right and your hands start to hurt after eight hours need to like change this and that.

[00:17:25] Keegan Swenson: So I think that’s where like us being like. From coming from XCO where it’s all short and you have like C like you’re not ever like straight your position might not be like the most comfortable, but it’s fast. And you like it into the center. It descends, well, it climbs, well, it’s fine. But for these longer races, I think you need to like spend time in that position and make sure the bikes good.

[00:17:45] Keegan Swenson: And we’re like, I’m like, man, I wrote all this gnarly stuff. I’m 38 C tires. Like maybe I don’t need to ride. I don’t need to follow the norm and do what everyone else is doing. Like I can get away with smaller tires and there’s other, there’s so many things I got didn’t realize like that was finally the whole trip on 40 seat bars.

[00:18:00] Keegan Swenson: Like I’ve been playing with different setups and like, it works fine for me. So I think there’s like things you learn that, that work.

[00:18:07] Jonathan Lee: So yeah. That’s swapping out those weekend rides, right. Amber, um, whenever you’re scheduled weekend, right. Is you can swap it out for a longer endurance one with trainer road.

Keegan’s strategy for Epic Rides’ 24 Hours in The Old Pueblo

[00:18:15] Jonathan Lee: That’s a good way to do it. So you can get that, that prep, um, for sure. Okay. Last thing to check in with you on this weekend. So tomorrow I’m flying out bright and early down to Tucson, uh, and you are also going there for 24 hours in the old Pueblo, which we’ve done as a podcast team before. That was, uh, that was, uh, just an absolute gong show over there.

[00:18:38] Jonathan Lee: That was like, it was terrible. We have people getting hurt and it was bad. Um, people just decided like, I don’t really want to ride at night. And then some of us just doing back-to-back-to-back laps at night, trying to make up for it. It was miserable. So this year, uh, I’m doing it again and I’m doing it with a totally different team.

[00:18:57] Jonathan Lee: My brother, I’ve never done a bike race with my brother. In fact, I don’t know if my brother has done a bike race. Maybe he’s done a couple, but he really wants to do this one. So I’m super excited. So I’m on a team with my brother. Uh, his boss, which will be fun. Uh, his boss is coming too. And then, uh, I guess if you’re going to take time off, why not bring your boss?

[00:19:15] Jonathan Lee: And then, uh, the other thing too, we have like a handful of friends that are going to do this Ryan Standish and other trend road employee also known as George sky, uh, on the internet. He’s going to be on the team. Sophia’s on our team. Uh, it’s going to be a fun group. Uh, Sean STS, good friend of mine. So, uh, we’re going to all be in a team, but you are doing it solo and you’re not just doing it solo because you want to go rack up a lot of Tyler because you don’t get along well with others.

[00:19:41] Jonathan Lee: You want to go because you actually want to like set a record. Does that, is that the case? Like, do you want to go for the record?

[00:19:47] Keegan Swenson: Yeah. I mean, I’m not doing it, like I’m doing it for fun, but I also, I don’t like if I’m going to go do something like this, I want to try and get the record, you know? Um, so yeah, like I kinda know what I’m getting myself into, but I also also realized I really have no idea what I’m doing, which is kind of cool.

[00:20:08] Keegan Swenson: Like, I think I’m as well prepared as I can be. Like, I have the guy awesome support crew. Like I’ve, you know, Myron team manager, Jordan Tobin’s out here to help. Um, Joshua starters can help me in the theater. He was actually going to race, but sadly he broke his hand couple weeks ago. So he’s out, he’s one of the solo animals.

[00:20:27] Keegan Swenson: He’s done a ton of time. He’s won it before and he’s just a ultra marathon beast. So I think be cool to have him helping me. I’ve got enough people in my corner that I think I’ll make it through, but I was thinking about it last night. I was like, man, this is going to be a long, it’s a long bike ride. I mean,

[00:20:45] Jonathan Lee: a lot.

[00:20:47] Jonathan Lee: Let’s put that in context. So what’s the record right now? Is it 20 labs? It’s 20 labs. Yeah. So you’d have to do 21 laps. Each lap takes about an hour. Uh, well, for, for you probably, I don’t know. We’ll, we’ll see maybe a bit longer than that. Trying to do that.

[00:21:02] Keegan Swenson: If I do like our 10, like I think that’s, that’s kinda my goal 10 or 15

[00:21:07] Jonathan Lee: consistency.

[00:21:08] Jonathan Lee: I think it was 2 86. NP for me was an hour and two minutes, I think. So. And then that AP on that was like 2 54. Um, so it’s pretty constant for a mountain bike course, but there’s still time to search and everything else. So, and I think it’s what it’s, uh, in that case to somewhere around like 16 or 18 miles, I think, or 17 miles.

[00:21:33] Jonathan Lee: Yeah, 17 miles a lap. If you do cheese, I’m going to do math really clear in

[00:21:37] Keegan Swenson: 66 miles. I think

[00:21:41] Jonathan Lee: that’s a lot in a day. A lots of ton.

[00:21:45] Keegan Swenson: Yeah, I’m trying, my goal is to try and break a thousand TSS. If I can be like 1100 or 1200, that’d be pretty cool.

[00:21:55] Jonathan Lee: That’d be pretty cool. He says, uh, okay. D uh, should we just wait, because I also know that monster, one of your sponsors is going to be documenting this, so I don’t want to like give away any, you know, unique approach things that you’re working on

[00:22:10] Keegan Swenson: really, really unique.

[00:22:11] Keegan Swenson: I mean, I think they’re going to capture some, some interesting stuff out there. Um, but yeah, uh, it’s going to be pretty crazy. I mean, I’ve ran it through it pretty, I got a pretty solid nutrition plan. I’m a nutritionist. I had a good chat and came up with a good plan. Like not planning to hit any caffeine till after midnight.

[00:22:29] Keegan Swenson: Like everything’s just such a different approach than a normal bike race. Like you’re thinking like you just gotta play the long game, you know, not get caught up in going too hard, too early, and like really focus on eating like somewhat of a solid, solid meals. Every I’m trying to eat something decent, every, like, I don’t know about every four hours and in between there, you know, kind of run off like junk food, more or less, you know, like simple things, little like white bread sandwiches and.

[00:22:56] Keegan Swenson: Stuff like that. Um, it’s Marios and, you know, trying to avoid gels and like too much race food. Cause I think that just gonna like really mess with my stomach after that long may save those for like, when I’m just sick of eating and don’t want to chew on anything anymore or mess with anything. I can start moving to gels then, um, then I’ve, you know, multiple, like I have two blurs set up, so they’re both gonna be identical, both blur, TRS

[00:23:23] Jonathan Lee: mountain bike, full suspension travel.

[00:23:28] Keegan Swenson: Yeah. Which I think sounds like it’s pretty overkill for this course, but a lot of people raise hard tails, but I think when you’re out there that long, like I think being comfortable is the most important part. So, um, you have two of those and I run a rigid post in both. So I figure I don’t need the dropper early anywhere from looking at the course, like there’s money, one little steep bit and also droppers, like you kind of squat to use them, right?

[00:23:49] Keegan Swenson: Like your legs. Do you think you take more load when you’re trying to use them and I want to be as efficient as possible. So I’m either going to be standing up high. If my legs locked out or I’m going to be sitting on the post, kind of save a little bit weight that way and that’ll help, you know, make up for the one 20, which will be nice as softer all around 2.4 aspens.

[00:24:08] Keegan Swenson: Probably have, like, I’m sending around a 30, eight tooth changing, but I might swap that back if I get, it feels like it’s too much, but it sounds like it’ll be fine. It’s pretty, relatively flat. And then I can, it’ll be in the middle of the cassette. Um, so yeah, that’s kind of the plan. I have enough lights set up.

[00:24:26] Keegan Swenson: I’ll just have lights on both bikes and rotate through all night. Um, yeah,

[00:24:31] Jonathan Lee: I don’t know. What about taking breaks? Do you plan to take any breaks or do you just plan to kind of just roll

[00:24:37] Keegan Swenson: through and then only breaks? Like I’ll stop, like put on legwarmers and arm warmers and like vests and stuff when it gets cold probably in the evening.

[00:24:45] Keegan Swenson: Um, and maybe like, then I’ll stop and like, you know, Wolf down like a little snack real quick, but it out stop. I can not stop for more than like five minutes at a time. I think that’d be good. I think once you stop for longer than that, you’re going to want to actually stop. And I think for me, if I like I can just, I can’t, I don’t want it.

[00:25:01] Keegan Swenson: I don’t want to sit down ever. You know, you just got to keep like, keep rolling.

[00:25:06] Jonathan Lee: Um, It’s kind of a hard course to eat on because there’s cactus, everything is pokey. Every single thing that you see is pokey and the course isn’t technical, but it’s constantly meandering left and right. And then add on fatigue to that, or poor visibility because the sun goes directly in your eyes, uh, when it’s setting and then when it’s rising the same thing.

[00:25:27] Jonathan Lee: And it’s like a simple thing that when you’re going to grab something out of a pocket to eat it, then it’s like, suddenly you’re one handed blinded by the sun and the course is weaving and you’re going to hit cactus. So it’s like, yeah, it’s the trail itself is not technical, but the consequences are high.

[00:25:42] Jonathan Lee: Like if you go off, you know, because if you get a bunch of briars stuck into you or something like that, then you’re going to be, that’s going to take a lot of time to get those out. Right. So yeah.

[00:25:53] Keegan Swenson: To bring the hair Cohen, pull them out. Yeah,

[00:25:55] Jonathan Lee: exactly. He’s the haircut. Ivy. You want to do this race too, right?

[00:26:00] Jonathan Lee: And maybe I’ll do it

[00:26:00] Amber Pierce: on CrossFit. You can exterior.

[00:26:03] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. It’s cross bike worthy. Like you could absolutely right across bike on it. I think. No, it wouldn’t be, it wouldn’t be as fun. It’d be way more fun than a mountain bike for sure. But, um, cool. Well, Keegan, good luck to you. If anybody is at 24 hours in the old Pueblo, um, I’m sure you’ll be able to find Keegan, uh, come find a confined me.

[00:26:23] Jonathan Lee: I, I, you know, it isn’t a work trip or anything, so it’s not like we’re going to have some sort of big tent or something, but we’ll be somewhere in 24 hour town. Come find us.

[00:26:33] Keegan Swenson: Look for. Yeah. So

[00:26:38] Jonathan Lee: that’s literally where to find Keegan the whole time. So, uh, good stuff. Um, uh, quick, uh, quick thing before we get into Eric’s question.

[00:26:46] Jonathan Lee: One thing that I want to mention to people is a lot of people have been talking about better weather training, outside doing all that stuff. And an awesome reminder that you can do your entire trainer road plan outside with outside workouts. So I think of it this way, you could sign up for trainer road, you can get adaptive training, you could get all these benefits and everything else you need to never have to train inside.

[00:27:08] Jonathan Lee: So many times train a road is always thought in the context of like, oh, it’s just an indoor training tool. Well, it’s, it’s whatever you need. It can be indoor. It can be outdoor, it can be everything else. So you can get all that benefit. And we’re working on what we call workout levels, V2, but we’re working on a totally new system.

How to deal with disappointing results in early season races

[00:27:24] Jonathan Lee: That’s going to be fantastic. It’s been in the works since we, before we launched that to training. Um, and it’s going to take into accounting and really analyze all of your outside workouts that are really high level. It’s unprecedented. Super cool. So we’re working on that. It’s a high company priority.

[00:27:38] Jonathan Lee: They’ll make it even better for when you ride outside. Anyways, all that said train inside outside, go to train road.com. Let’s get in Derek’s question. He says, Hey, podcast friends. I’m a huge train road fan. And after discovering the podcast last summer and starting with adaptive training in the fall, it made me so much faster in every way.

[00:27:54] Jonathan Lee: And that’s been backed up by power PRS and KOMS across all durations. Good to hear. Smash and comms and PRS. Uh, he says having gotten so much faster than I have ever been previously, I was looking forward to the first race of the year, which is a mass start hill climb race. And he says, uh, uh, is this a time trial?

[00:28:10] Jonathan Lee: We call it a time trial, but I guess it isn’t a time trial when I think about it. Yeah. I I’ve seen that before, too, when it’s like a mass start race. If it’s mass start, it’s not a time trial. So, um, would you agree a hundred percent? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. He says now comes the sad part. I finished fourth in the cat three category, but expected to be first.

[00:28:30] Jonathan Lee: I finished in the top 10 last year. And while I was faster by just over a minute, this year on an 18 minute climb my power PRS in times on segments, suggest I should have been at least two minutes better, which would have put me in first place. Have any view experienced this before? Why aren’t my gains transferring to a race scenario?

[00:28:49] Jonathan Lee: Good question, Amber what’s. I mean, you’ve been through a whole lot of seasons where you’ve been like early season prep and then showing up for those first races of the season.

[00:28:57] Amber Pierce: Yeah. So there’s a lot that goes into managing expectations, uh, for the first rest of the year. And I want to get into that more generally in a second, but first thing I want to say here is mass art versus time trial is a really, really big differentiator.

[00:29:10] Amber Pierce: And so what’s happening with the people around you in a mass start. Race is going to have a huge impact on what you actually do, even if you’re not necessarily conscious of it at the time. So there’s going to be a lot of variability between what happened last year and what happened this year. Now the least of which is.

[00:29:27] Amber Pierce: What your competitors have been doing. And the last couple of years, we haven’t had a lot of race opportunities. So I think a lot of people have been putting some big miles into their training. So you probably, aren’t the only one coming back with huge gains. Um, and that’s one of the things that we see with raising.

[00:29:43] Amber Pierce: And I see Ivy’s got some good thoughts on here too, that I a hundred percent agree with. So I want to turn it over to her for some comments too. Cool. Yeah.

[00:29:51] Ivy Audrain: I’d call this a race, math or results. Math and

[00:29:57] Jonathan Lee: race is not good. Math. No,

[00:29:59] Amber Pierce: it’s not. It can be so self

[00:30:02] Ivy Audrain: destructive, uh, especially in individual events when stuff can change so much on the day, um, for like a time trial setting, when you have some sort of target in mind, um, even if you’ve been on the road or the course, a hundred times, stuff can be different than day.

[00:30:17] Ivy Audrain: Your equipment can be different temperature, wind, like whatever. Um, and so kind of pinhole yourself into what you

[00:30:27] Amber Pierce: expect

[00:30:27] Ivy Audrain: can sometimes limit you too. Um, and then when it doesn’t go to plan and you’re seeing like having to reconcile within the moment that it’s not going to plan based upon your race math, um, you have to like reconcile with it in that moment and think about that during the race, instead of just racing and focusing on your effort.

[00:30:46] Ivy Audrain: And there are some major

[00:30:48] Jonathan Lee: pitfalls with that. That’s when you can start spiraling to right where you suddenly are. Uh, actually, we’ve mentioned this before, Keegan with cross-country Olympic racing with you where like, it’s like, shoot, I’m not where I thought I was going to be. And then like, it’s really easy to fall into this cycle then just be like, like, what’s your problem?

[00:31:06] Jonathan Lee: Why aren’t you there? What’s your problem? Why aren’t you there? Like, why are you sucking? And then that doesn’t really help. Like, like it just makes it worse. Right?

[00:31:14] Keegan Swenson: Yeah. And it’s, I mean, it’s definitely kind of tricky to find that balance of like, just be your pressure on yourself to perform. And you also, like, I know I’m fitter than I was, but like, sorry to, you have to put the race aside and focus.

[00:31:27] Keegan Swenson: It’s a little different minute hill climb time travel for a cross country race. I need to focus on yourself and less about the race and treat it as more of like a time trial. That makes sense. And just do your thing. And the result is going to be what it’s going to be. Um, it’s just different than when you’re racing, when you’re racing the front of your racing for a certain position on like, there’s this, like, there’s so many variables there.

[00:31:44] Keegan Swenson: I think come back to your hillclimb TT here. Um, it’s hard. Like you want to go and set the fastest time on the course, then you obviously have to go out and ride. Your limit for that segment. Right. And that might not be the best way to win the race because someone can just sit on your wheel. And even though it’s a, hillclimb, they’re still getting a small draft and then it can come around to the finish.

[00:32:04] Keegan Swenson: Like I think for racing, you want to win the race with the least amount of work possible. So if you can win the race and have a lower power, lower power numbers of our walk per kg than everyone else in the race, then you’ve really won the race and you’ve done the best job possible because that means you want it easily.

[00:32:21] Keegan Swenson: Um, so you, you would sit in and lets everyone else do the work. And maybe that maybe your segment times were slower and maybe the hill client was slower than before, but you won the race. So I think it’s hard to really like look at this segment and be like, oh, I’m not as fit as I was, even though I should be like, it’s really hard to you just can’t eat.

[00:32:40] Keegan Swenson: You can’t let that get in your head. I mean, there’s definitely been races where like, oh, I should have been faster. Like I’m so much fitter this year, but you still won. Or I still won the race because it’s different conditions. There’s wind. There’s like, you don’t know how everyone else wants to race it.

[00:32:52] Keegan Swenson: So, I mean, it’s really like a hard thing to, to balance. Like if you want to go out and do it fast and just attack from the bottom and you’re going to risk someone sitting on and nipping you with the finished, but maybe you’re going to set a better power PR and. Like a better segment time. So it’s, you got to find what you want out of it, I guess.

[00:33:10] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. There’s different measures of success. Right? Right.

[00:33:13] Amber Pierce: Yeah.

[00:33:14] Ivy Audrain: And, um, Eric obviously knows their own strengths very well based upon their, their race math and down to the minute Asian events. Um, and so they should try to capitalize on some of those strengths. Like I feel like they must know, um, broken down by, by time what their strengths are.

[00:33:36] Ivy Audrain: Um, like for the next mass master rate raise to a Keegan suggested and try to sit in and chill out. And you know that you maybe have a really good, like one K really strong move and try to work that in or something like that. Um, and that might look like on race day, your effort might not be as fast as your PR you know, doing all this race method to see how fast you could go on race day.

[00:34:01] Ivy Audrain: If it’s mass start, you probably won’t go as fast as you absolutely positively could if you’re playing your cards.

[00:34:05] Amber Pierce: Right.

[00:34:06] Keegan Swenson: Right. If it’s a steep enough climb and you want to just go out and show everyone how strong you are, then you attack right from the beginning. And hopefully you can stay out and win.

[00:34:15] Keegan Swenson: Like there’s

[00:34:16] Jonathan Lee: not advisable.

[00:34:18] Keegan Swenson: It really depends on the course if it’s like steep enough. And you’re like, I can walk all over these guys. I’m just going to talk from the bottom. And if they can hang, they can hang. If not, that’s a bummer. So I think there’s so many ways you can go about it. But if there’s, if there’s a lot, if there’s drafting involved, if it’s.

[00:34:35] Keegan Swenson: I’d say if it’s like under like 8% or, you know, six to 8%, then there’s going to be drafting. If it’s over like eight or 10, there’s probably, you’re probably going slow enough. That drafting is really irrelevant. And it’s more just the motivation of staring at someone’s wheel than anything. So

[00:34:49] Amber Pierce: because even, oh, sorry, go ahead.

[00:34:52] Amber Pierce: I was gonna

[00:34:52] Keegan Swenson: say like, even if you’re not drafting, you’re still staring at the wheel and it helps a lot to like, like I’m not just not going to come off. You know, that’s one thing I learned, like in the shootout, like Alexa Romulan and I were having a good race up the Madera climb and I would attack and he would counter attack.

[00:35:06] Keegan Swenson: And even though you’re not getting a draft, you’re just staring at the hub. Like, don’t come off, don’t come off. He’s gonna slow down. Eventually it’s gonna get easier. So I think like there’s a more, there’s more to that than you might think there is.

[00:35:17] Amber Pierce: Yeah. It’s not just about the drafting. When there are other people around you pushing the pace, it’s going to affect your pacing because you’re going to be influenced by what other people around you are doing.

[00:35:27] Amber Pierce: And it’s really hard not to be when it’s a mass argument and an individual time trial. It really is just you. And you can be very internally focused and pace according to what you want to do. But in a mass start event, even when there’s no drafting, there is going to be an influence of the other writers on you.

[00:35:40] Amber Pierce: So that’s a really important factor. That’s hard to account for, with

[00:35:43] Keegan Swenson: math, even if they’re, even if they’re behind you and you help. So you have like a 22nd gap that motivation to stay ahead of them is still going to be greater than when you’re on your own. It’s like you see the pack back. They’re going to go harder.

[00:35:55] Keegan Swenson: So they don’t catch me. Think there’s still there’s that kind of motivation too.

[00:36:00] Jonathan Lee: And after, after this, after these like disappointing races, um, maybe Amber, you can share a bit on this, but like, you can either look at it as like, man, I failed. And then you can question all of your training, which I think for a lot of us endurance athletes is our initial natural reaction.

[00:36:15] Jonathan Lee: It’s like the unbridled reaction where we’re like, well, because of one single effort, I am going to completely invalidate the months of work that I did prior to this. I’m just going to throw them out. They, they were wrong and they don’t matter and everything is wrong and I need to change everything. Or you can look at it from a different perspective.

[00:36:33] Jonathan Lee: Amber, how would you, like if you were, if you were coaching an athlete through a situation like this, what are the things that you would encourage them to do when they look back and reflect on that disappointing race? Well, I

[00:36:46] Amber Pierce: would want them to not do what I usually do. You get a really awesome, you know, off season of training, you’ve been building up to your races and you feel awesome.

[00:36:58] Amber Pierce: You’re flying. Like you said, you’ve got PRS, you know, you’re crushing it and you just can’t wait to get into a race and show what you can do. And then it doesn’t go to plan. So then I would go back to my coach and say, okay, so I really need to work on my climbing, but we also need to get my sprinting up to par and I really need to get my steady state going.

[00:37:15] Amber Pierce: And basically like, I need to work on all of the things I need to do all the things. Yeah. It’s it’s hard not to get excited when you know, you have good fitness and to put all of those hopes into the very first race, but you have to remember it’s that long-term vision, this your season, isn’t all about one race and one race or one bay is not going to determine the quality or the success that you’re going to see in a season.

[00:37:40] Amber Pierce: You have to remember that you’re in this for the long haul. It wasn’t like you were tapering up for this one perfect day. Right? Um, so what I suggest again, is look at this through the lens of curiosity, you’re going to learn a lot about the competitors that you’ll be going up against for the rest of the season.

[00:37:57] Amber Pierce: So this is an awesome opportunity to say, Hey, who’s coming out of the off season, flying this year, who may have put in a lot of work next year from last year that I need to look at the season. So you start to see who you need to be keying off from maybe in some future races coming down the pipe. Um, but really it’s, it’s about approaching that first race with a sense of curiosity framed in the re like framed in that knowledge that you are facing an entire season and a lot can change over a couple of weeks, a lot, definitely a lot can change over a few months.

[00:38:31] Amber Pierce: So, you know, settle in for the long haul and to see how much you can learn from each race. What, what were you able to learn from this race? Maybe one of those things. Race math. Doesn’t always add up the way that we would like it to. Um, but yeah, managing expectations is, is a lot easier when you approach it from the perspective of curiosity, what can I learn about myself as an athlete and what can I apply in the future?

[00:38:57] Jonathan Lee: Sure. I typically would try to find at the beginning of every season, like races, that I did not care about, like w C races, B races, whatever it might be, but like fill it in with races or group rides that are like hard group rides that are kind of like race simulation ones. We were talking about the Tucson shootout earlier.

[00:39:15] Jonathan Lee: Um, if you feel, if you have opportunities like that, where you approach it with curiosity and zero expectation, it makes it really easy to, to learn from those events and learn from those because we all get rusty. We forget how, and then also like with new fitness comes new ways to execute too. That’s something that we probably don’t talk about a whole lot, but.

[00:39:37] Jonathan Lee: If suddenly you’re really good at steady state power. Um, but your repeatability has dropped off. That doesn’t mean that you’re a worse athlete. It just means that you have to execute differently and you might be really successful if he can find the right way to use those tools that you’ve built. So it’s, it’s more about like, you have to give yourself time to figure it out every year that’s normal and you have to give yourself time to figure out how to deal with all these new things that you’ve built.

[00:40:04] Jonathan Lee: That’s normal. So it’s, it’s really advisable, I think, to fill the beginning part of this season, we’ve talked about racing in the base phase and everything else of races with zero expectations, just like showing up and being like, how’s it going to go? And that, once again, it could just be group rides too.

[00:40:17] Jonathan Lee: But that, that I feel like because then you go every week you add another learning every week is just one more, one more, one more, and then you really know how to use your fitness and how to race. Well, it’s pretty cool. I think it’s,

[00:40:32] Keegan Swenson: you can also, as kind of thinking back what you just said, like you race, you learned to race differently with the fitness you have.

[00:40:38] Keegan Swenson: Cause I know that for example, like early season, I don’t have very good repeatability and I don’t have very good like snap, but I can ride at a really high, like high, sweet spot or high threshold pace for a long time. So you can change your tactics of how, how you’re gonna, how that race is going to play out.

[00:40:54] Keegan Swenson: Like I would never. I got, never do a cross country race this time of year and like, wait for the sprint. Right? Like I’m gonna try and make it hard from the beginning. And like, this is the pace I’m gonna ride. And cause I know I can do this and hopefully this is hard for everyone else because I don’t want it.

[00:41:07] Keegan Swenson: I don’t want it to come down to the last two climbs. Cause maybe I’m not, I’m not prepared for that kind of effort. So you can also like race to your strengths currently. And maybe later in the year, like, oh, I know I can, I know I can win a sprint. So I’m fine waiting for the sprint. But you have to be like wary of what, where your fitness is at and what your strengths are in that for this blocker month or whatever it may be.

[00:41:26] Keegan Swenson: And you can change it.

[00:41:28] Jonathan Lee: So kind of a fun way to go about that with group rides in particular or races, it could be, but group rides are a fantastic opportunity to do this when they’re fast and there’s faster people than us, which basically every group ride, unless you’re, I don’t know, maybe Amber, Ivy and Keegan have situations where they show up and they are the fastest, but I never have that.

[00:41:45] Jonathan Lee: So, but in those situations when you’re there, it’s like, um, I’ve done this with our local drop ride, which is like the Tucson shooter. But with Reno, I basically like week one, I will, if I want to work on repeatability, I will count how many attacks I can do. Right. And if somebody doesn’t counter attack me, I’ll attack myself.

[00:42:04] Jonathan Lee: So like if I, if I ease up and nobody attacks, I’ll be like, okay, Now attack number three, now, attack number four. And then next week I’ll say I made it 15 attacks. Whereas the week before I only made it 10, like, Hey, that’s progress. And like little, you kind of like want to push the limits with those, with these low consequence races or race SIM group rides, you want to push, that’s a good way to push the limits to be like, if I attack again, I’m going to absolutely explode, but let’s just try it and let’s see what happens.

[00:42:31] Jonathan Lee: And you just keep trying, approaching it with curiosity, like Amber says, because then at that point, that’s when you can actually stretch your limits. Whereas you show up to a race like this and Eric, I’m not criticizing your approach. Hopefully you can learn from this, you show up to a race and you’re like, okay, I’ve done the race math, like Ivy said, I know that I can do this and I can do this.

[00:42:50] Jonathan Lee: So you set very clear bounds for you to operate within which totally makes sense. And you’re talking like a race territory. Like there’s still, you need to leave room for curiosity on those days. But at the beginning, first race of the season, I personally think that that’s not the approach to go. You shouldn’t be finding limits for yourself.

[00:43:09] Jonathan Lee: You should just be going into it and just being like, let’s see how it all unfolds. So give yourself opportunities to be able to like explore uncharted very uncomfortable territory. And that’s how you’ll end up getting more out of yourself. So, any other advice for Eric? That’s a good question, Eric. Thank you.

[00:43:26] Jonathan Lee: Jump on. Getting faster, Eric. Yeah, let it go, man. Yeah. And here’s the cool part is that with all the improvement that you’ve made moving forward, if you can find other race opportunities for this, you’re going to have a banner year. Like it’s going to be the best year you’ve had. So it’s pretty exciting stuff.

How to regain motivation after years of training

[00:43:45] Jonathan Lee: Uh, Chris says longtime listener, recent convert watcher. That must mean that you’re on YouTube, uh, with us Chris, if you’re here, good to see you. Uh, first-time caller says, thanks for all the G2. I’ve come to the end of yet another very consistent and fruitful base season with great improvements to show for it.

[00:44:00] Jonathan Lee: But I’m lacking motivation. I’ve always perceived the same racing goals every year with my local mountain bike series, serving as C and B races and our XC state championships serving as my race. But this year I’m just not motivated to do those events. Don’t get me wrong. I’m still willing to do the work, but I feel like I need a fresh start in terms of racing.

[00:44:18] Jonathan Lee: I’m a mid-pack finisher, so I’m not motivated by a win as it is out of reach for me. So I guess I’m just a bit bored with just finishing mid pack at the same races every year. What have you done in similar situations? I hope answering this question can be valuable to other listeners because I feel like I can’t be alone in this.

[00:44:35] Jonathan Lee: Yeah, for sure. I’m not being alone in this. You’re not at all, Chris. Uh, that happens with plenty of athletes, uh, Keegan you’re taking on like these big, long ultra endurance events. It’s a totally different thing for you, even though you’ve done long things before, but it’s a very different focus, Amber.

[00:44:52] Jonathan Lee: Heck you went from swimming to cycling, but then also within cycling, you changed your focus multiple times and Ivy you’ve done genuinely. I think every, have you done a downhill race? I don’t know if you’ve done. Maybe that’s the only thing you haven’t done. I haven’t, that’s

[00:45:04] Amber Pierce: a bad idea. I’m not going to be that

[00:45:07] Jonathan Lee: actually you riff on the sense.

[00:45:09] Jonathan Lee: You’d be really good at it. Um, so no, Chris, like this is normal, first of all, to feel like you’re a S uh, what do we want to call it? Like stagnant or the racing experience becomes stale for you. Yeah, totally. That’s and don’t feel bad about that either like that. That’s not something that is on you. That’s just the way things go.

[00:45:29] Jonathan Lee: Um, yeah. I, I feel like for me, if I don’t find what sparks joy like to take a Marie Kondo thing here, if I don’t find what sparks joy in bike racing, then it is really tough to get motivation. What do we all find for motivation in terms of like, um, I guess with cycling events in particular, perhaps you can share a moment when you changed that when like you started focusing on something differently and why you made that.

[00:45:58] Jonathan Lee: Amber, do you have a, do you want to lead us off on this?

[00:46:01] Amber Pierce: Sure. Um, I’ve gone through a few different shifts on this front, uh, in cycling in particular. Um, when I got started, I was, you know, a relative beginner and I wasn’t on a team. And so I was really racing for myself and learning race tactics, which was really fun.

[00:46:16] Amber Pierce: And I really enjoyed that learning curve. Um, but then I shifted to being on a team and being a teammate and being somebody who was really caring more about what was the result of the team versus my own result. And I know that’s hard with mountain biking. Um, pardon me, wants to recommend that you give road racing and try and find a team, you know, work with some teammates that might not be something that appeals to you.

[00:46:37] Amber Pierce: Uh, but now honestly, I mean, one of the things that has been a common thread throughout my whole career was I really enjoy the feeling of being fit and just do it feels really good. And I enjoy the process of going from that off season, low level of fitness to a high level of fitness. And so I would encourage you to just think about, you know, what are some other elements about riding that may not even necessarily have to do with racing.

[00:47:02] Amber Pierce: It might be motivating for you right now. My main motivation is that I want it. I want to feel fit again. I just want to feel like I can hop on my bike and climb up a mountain and feel really good and snappy doing that. And I definitely don’t feel like that right now, but I know that I can get there and I know I’m gonna enjoy that process.

[00:47:16] Amber Pierce: Um, so it, it’s a really basic thing. You know, if you’re looking at a local race series and you want to go because there’s a social component to that. That’s great too. You don’t necessarily have to raise for women if it’s a similar course that you’re racing at year after year, you can work on improving your time on that course.

[00:47:33] Amber Pierce: I mean, there are other ways of framing, even a race scenario where you’re not on a team. Um, so I would just suggest get, get creative and see if something resonates with you.

[00:47:43] Jonathan Lee: How about you Ivy? Um, what would you have to share in this situation for Chris?

[00:47:47] Ivy Audrain: Uh, I’m super transparent in my lack of motivation frequently.

[00:47:55] Ivy Audrain: How does me all the time? I just, it

[00:47:57] Amber Pierce: varies sometimes I’ll have a

[00:48:01] Ivy Audrain: really good month or a good week, and sometimes it changes daily and I have bouts of nihilism and the train doesn’t matter, nothing matters. And I’ll try to get to the bottom of why. Um, sometimes it’s just like a rest thing or a nutrition thing.

[00:48:19] Ivy Audrain: Um, but if the answer isn’t obvious, I try really hard not to dig into why and figure out why I’m not motivated because that hasn’t really worked for me. Um, if it’s not there, I don’t know. It seems like just like digging in deeper and trying to figure out why I’m not stoked about training and racing and everything.

[00:48:41] Ivy Audrain: Doesn’t doesn’t work for me. Um, so instead, um, I just try to do. Change up, you know, training structure to see if there’s something I can change that will make me more excited about writing or do a different discipline for a little bit. So from doing a lot of training on the road, if that can be a little, um, like mind numbing and, um, just mixing up with a different discipline and doing an off-road ride just for one day without structure can really help me sometimes.

[00:49:09] Ivy Audrain: So, um, and everyone’s different. And for Chris with racing, sounds like they’re doing the same races every year. I wonder if they mean when they say the same races every year. I wonder if they just mean the same type of discipline or if they’re actually doing like the same local series every year and maybe they just seem to mix it up, go find a different races, a few hours out of town, make a weekend out of it to keep them excited about something else and other races

[00:49:35] Amber Pierce: that are out there.

[00:49:37] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. I don’t think we’ve ever covered Ivy. What made you change from road racing over to cross? Oh, um,

[00:49:45] Ivy Audrain: well I broke so many bones of Rosebank, half and bones in my body and my teeth and everything. So tired of crashing. And, uh, I did really struggle with the motivation to train for what it looked like to be really good at road racing.

[00:50:06] Ivy Audrain: Um, I just didn’t, I wasn’t motivated to do it anymore. I didn’t want to go ride by myself, um, on the road where I was worried about my safety. Um, with cars and I wanted to get off of the road and it was too, I just couldn’t get motivated to, to be on the road anymore. And since then, it’s now that I do off-road stuff, it’s easier to incorporate road rides now that I don’t do it all the time and it would have paid.

[00:50:34] Ivy Audrain: And so the motivation is there again. Um, but yeah, that’s how I got into off-road. I just was absolutely crapped on road racing and crashing and kind of the culture of road racing and everything that surrounds a training for road. I was just, I was just done and started just like goofing off on an Enduro bike and was like, cool.

[00:50:55] Ivy Audrain: I like offered stuff and I still like pedaling really hard. So, um, what can I do? Um, yeah. And then cross in sometime sexy

[00:51:03] Amber Pierce: happened.

[00:51:05] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. Um, and so it’s normal to have this transition. First of all, Chris, everybody changes now Keegan, in your case, it’s like your job to change because there’s a lifetime grand Prix.

[00:51:16] Jonathan Lee: Uh, I mean, I, uh, I guess, I mean, you could also just continue to pursue XCO too, and that could also very much be your job, but the, there is this huge opportunity. So like what caused you to shift. Was it, is it like, and, and by the way, I want to normalize this it’s okay. For professional motivation to be the goal.

[00:51:34] Jonathan Lee: Like it’s okay to say there’s more money to go here because it’s your job. It’s like what everybody would do at any job. And it’s like, Hey, there’s an opportunity to get more money over here. So that’s on the table. That’s okay to say. But then also, like, was there anything more to having you switched from shorter races going into ultra endurance?

[00:51:51] Jonathan Lee: Maybe this was what you always wanted to do, even though you’re doing something else. Right. It’s,

[00:51:55] Keegan Swenson: that’s what I’ve always been. Everybody’s tech CEO for me, since I was a junior, you know, there’s like, I just realized the other day, like, while I’ve raced, like this race, like Mount St. Anne world cup, like the last 10, 12 years in a row.

[00:52:07] Keegan Swenson: Um, and I’m just, I’m really, I’m excited to do something different, but also I think the marathon stuff has always kind of suited me a little bit better. Like, I’ve always done it. Like, man, this is like, I like this. It’s more fun to me. I think I’m better at it. Um, but there wasn’t really a huge platform for it over here.

[00:52:27] Keegan Swenson: Like there was a couple of gravel races, there was some longer marathon. Like there was the epic ride series and like some other random stuff here and there, but it wasn’t quite as big. Um, and then all of a sudden, like these gravel races, like just appeared, it seemed like, I guess I’d always kind of been there, but they just like exploded.

[00:52:47] Keegan Swenson: Um, and I wasn’t really sure what I thought of it. I was like, no, no, no, this is kinda, it’s kinda weird. Like not didn’t really seem too into it, but I raised one of them. I did the Belgian Wolf. Uh, the Cedar city one and had a ton of fun. I was like, wow, this is really cool. Like there’s tactics, there’s a lot of fitness.

[00:53:02] Keegan Swenson: It’s long, it’s hard. Um, and it’s cool. And I think I love these long races cause it’s really like so much can happen and it’s, if you don’t give up and you just like, keep your, keep your head down and keep, keep trucking, like you’re going to do well, you know, as long as you don’t pull the pin, which I think is kind of a cool, solid racing, like it just, it’s really difficult.

[00:53:23] Keegan Swenson: Um, and there’s a lot that goes into it. You have to have like, you know, pretty good repeatable power, cause there’s like a lot of surges and, but you also have to have just a big diesel motor for a long, these events are. Um, so it’s kind of a cool balance of a lot of different things. And there’s also still like the technical aspect of like handling skills.

[00:53:42] Keegan Swenson: And I think even though it’s relatively easy compared to mountain bike racing, you’re still like you’re going fast. And I think it’s almost harder in some ways to rip a gravel road quickly, especially when you’re kind of shelved. Um, but yeah, so I’m, I’m actually more motivated this year than I had been in a long time.

[00:53:58] Keegan Swenson: That’s what I’ve never really lacked. Like I’ve never really lacked motivation to train I going. I love training. I love, you know, it sounds, I think it’s like, like a dog and just, I need my job and, you know, have to go out and train, work

[00:54:09] Jonathan Lee: hard, get it done.

[00:54:14] Keegan Swenson: Like I love pushing myself and finding like those limits, you know, Like I was thinking that it was like a man. I wonder like how many days of a camp like that I could handle before I like completely fell apart, you know? Like couldn’t either. So I guess that’s why, like, I’m kind of excited for this 24 is it’s like such a different, different thing.

[00:54:30] Keegan Swenson: I love like pushing myself to do new things and um, to new goals, but I’m still racing some XCO, like I’m definitely gonna go back and try and defend my XCO national title and short track. Like, I think it’s still fun. I’m just going to pick and choose the events I want to do now. Instead of force myself like, oh, I have to go there, do this race to get points and cause to the me that isn’t quite as much fun.

[00:54:51] Keegan Swenson: Like I want to do a race because I want to do it. I don’t want to like go because I have to, if that makes sense. And so I’m kinda looking forward to a new challenge and, um, yeah, I’m looking forward to that. And back to the motivation thing with, uh, COVID like there was no racing and like, there was wasn’t much going on and I got to still motivate a tranq.

[00:55:10] Keegan Swenson: So like, I know it’s going to help me for next year. So I have to stay fit and like keep building. But along the way, you can find other goals too. Like if you don’t want to race, maybe like find enough Katie, you want to go do or like get some friends together and go like race on a different circuit. Like I understand, like I grew up racing at the same Intermountain cup series and Utah for, you know, as a junior, we race the same races every year.

[00:55:31] Keegan Swenson: I was like, man, I was so excited when I get to leave the state and go do something else, you know? So I understand what you’re kind of what you’re feeling, but I think if you can, maybe you can find some other events. I mean, there’s some gravel races you can go do and. Or maybe there’s a road race, like Amber mentioned, like you can learn a lot from those events too.

[00:55:46] Keegan Swenson: I think like road racing and gravel racing, you it’ll make you a better mountain biker. You’ll learn tactics and, um, all that other stuff. So I think maybe just find something that motivates, you know, or if you don’t, if you don’t want to race at all, then just train. If you’re sounds like you’re still motivated to train, so you just train and then you’re probably going to be just as fit or better for your state championship.

[00:56:04] Keegan Swenson: If that’s your main target, like you don’t have to race every weekend to be good.

[00:56:07] Ivy Audrain: So, and then they’ll start winning and then they’ll be super

[00:56:10] Amber Pierce: motivated. And then the, yeah,

[00:56:15] Jonathan Lee: it’s amazing how that works. Yeah. The common theme that I’m finding is that, so it’s, and this. Absolutely. Okay. As well. But when races are nearby, they’re accessible and we do them and it becomes a fun routine and we know the people there and that just becomes part of it.

[00:56:32] Jonathan Lee: But sometimes, uh, maybe we, instead of looking at events that are just close to us or they’re there, or we’ve done them before we should instead look at events that really like actually make us excited or challenge us in a particular way that motivates us. Right. So it’s okay to do that. It’s okay to change things up.

[00:56:49] Jonathan Lee: So Chris and I’m boy, like having an event on the calendar is a great way to manage motivation. The next question from David really goes into more of the kind of things on consistency and tying into motivation too. But having an event that makes you excited on the calendar is great. Having an event that doesn’t make you excited on the calendar makes it really tough to push through those days when you don’t want to be out there, uh, or push through those days when, um, uh, yeah, I guess just give your best on days when it’s tempting to just not give your best, you know, and then have something to be excited about.

[00:57:21] Jonathan Lee: It totally changes it as

[00:57:22] Keegan Swenson: you build out, like you build out your race calendar in your calm, excited to do this, this and this. And then like, as you get closer, you’re like, this just doesn’t sound fun. Like, I don’t want to do that anymore. You know, like I always do that. I have like my full, like having an Excel sheet, all my races, and then I’ll like put them in, put them on the calendar.

[00:57:38] Keegan Swenson: And as you get closer, I’m like, man, it’s just like, I don’t want to do this. I’d rather just go train and just go ride with my friends. So. Sometimes you don’t have to do it. You don’t want to just a bike race, like there’s other things you can do, you know, just focus on the really ones that you really want to do.

[00:57:52] Keegan Swenson: And then you’ll be more excited for those.

Tips from pros on how they maintain consistency in training


[00:57:54] Jonathan Lee: Yeah, for sure. It’s going to David’s question. He says, since consistency is so important for long-term progress. Thank you, David. We say that so much. Um, everyone wants to know what the secret, uh, interval workout is to do or the secret training plan or anything else.

[00:58:07] Jonathan Lee: And it’s just consistency in facts. Uh, Neil’s Vanderpoel is one of the best speed skaters in the world and the 5k 10 K distances this year, or just recently he released like, basically, like he documented all the training that he does on the bike, which spoiler alert. I think he trains on the bike more than most pro cyclists.

[00:58:24] Jonathan Lee: It’s insane. Um, and he talks a lot about what he does, but if you look at it, the main thing is he is so consistent. And if you look at it just over time, he finds ways to make himself more consistent. Um, it’s a common thing that we see across the best athletes, same thing with Keegan. And he just doesn’t miss.

[00:58:43] Jonathan Lee: Like he’s just always out there doing things. And Amber with your jeez, the amount of consistency you had with your swimming career and every, you know, consistency works. So he says, can each of you give some tips on what things you’ve learned over the years that have helped you maintain consistency?

[00:58:58] Jonathan Lee: What have you learned that has helped you maintain consistent consistency in the face of illness, fatigue, life stress, lack of ambition and the opposite too much ambition. Thanks from David Edward. You want to kick us off? Sure I

[00:59:11] Amber Pierce: think so. I want to start answering this question by, uh, talking about the idea of discipline, because I think the discipline is very much tied in with the idea of consistency.

[00:59:22] Amber Pierce: Like in order to be consistent, you have to be disciplined and discipline. I think for most people relates to this idea of willpower. Like you have to will yourself to be consistent all the time. And if you’re really disciplined, it means you have a really strong will. And if you’re not consistent, it’s because you’re not disciplined and you don’t have a strong will.

[00:59:39] Amber Pierce: And I want to challenge that because I think instead of feeling like you have to, will yourself to be consistent and disciplined, it’s more about removing obstacles to consistency. Um, and for me, discipline is much more about finding a reason to want to go out then finding the willpower to force yourself, to go out and train.

[01:00:01] Amber Pierce: So if you can identify a way of wanting to go out and figure out, and this kind of ties back to what we were just talking about with motivation, what’s getting in the way. So how many obstacles to getting out to train? Can you remove, can you set up everything the night before? Can you, um, Uh, there there’s so many, so many ways that you can remove friction to getting out and getting your workouts done.

[01:00:24] Amber Pierce: And it’s, so it’s not just about, oh, I don’t have enough willpower to do this. It’s Hey, you might have a lot of things stacked against you right now. Lots of life stress, um, logistics might be really difficult or tricky. There’s a lot that goes into being consistent that has nothing to do with willpower at all.

[01:00:41] Amber Pierce: So I would challenge you to think about this in terms of what obstacles and friction can you remove rather than how can I be more disciplined or exert more

[01:00:53] Jonathan Lee: willpower? Um, IVU, uh, I mean, you’re in Sacramento right now with the squid bikes crew. Is that kind of like what Amber is talking about? Like you, are you implementing that very thing here?

[01:01:05] Amber Pierce: Yeah, very much so,

[01:01:06] Ivy Audrain: uh, having a support circle and, uh, people don’t want to train with me has helped me with consistency so much. And I know for me having a routine that we all follow together, um, and sometimes I have to break away from that. If I, um, if training goals, don’t ally with align with having Tagalongs.

[01:01:30] Ivy Audrain: But, um, having a routine when I train has helped me a lot, um, because when I used to, um, kind of like watch the weather and, um, And see how the day went. And, um, I would shovel with consistency all the time. Like I’d push it back and like find some project and, uh, never started the same time. And the, my nutrition is weird and mess up.

[01:01:56] Ivy Audrain: The timing is weird. Um, and I didn’t get as much out of the workouts and it was hard to stay consistent. So, um, now when I start my workouts in the late afternoon, it’s not ideal. And I do a lot of my training with lights in the dark sometimes, but I’ve spent all day, uh, structuring my nutrition in a way that really helps me do those workouts in the afternoon better.

[01:02:22] Ivy Audrain: Um, I feel like I accomplished a lot during the day. So when I’m training, I don’t stress out about having to rush back or being late for a meeting or thinking about all the things that I like need to do that day or wish I would’ve done it. Having that routine sets me up to, uh, be consistent and not even have to think about it.

[01:02:41] Ivy Audrain: The structure’s there

[01:02:43] Jonathan Lee: Keegan when I was, uh, so it was a camp for me, but it was just a normal, probably a light week for you. Uh, but earlier in December I came out and I just tried to ride behind you for a week. And it’s always impresses me to see how top athletes, like the three of you have everything designed around.

[01:03:03] Jonathan Lee: Removing friction for training, like, like you, as soon as he got done, you like did all the maintenance that you needed to do. If it was a little bit of maintenance or more maintenance, whatever, it was like, you did that, right. When you finished your training and your bike was just done, you like ad kit figured out you had food figured out, you eat so much.

[01:03:21] Jonathan Lee: It’s ridiculous. Um, and like you do all of these things just to make training easier. And they’ll like, your lifestyle is 100% built around it now for the, and is that something, are you constantly searching for ways to improve that? Or is that just simply like, it’s been habit for so long now that that just is what it is.

[01:03:42] Keegan Swenson: That’s right. I think most of it is just kind of evolved to find the most efficient, um, most efficient way to do it. Maybe not the most efficient, but the way I like to do it and the way I think it works the best for me. Um, cause really like my job is to go train so sure. There’s maybe some days where I don’t want to go training if the weather’s bad or whatever, but like you just, you go, you go, should go do it because that’s what you have to do.

[01:04:07] Keegan Swenson: And in general, I try and have like the same kind of schedule, like wake up around like seven or eight, have breakfast, try and ride before 11 normally. Um, I just have like signed get back. I’m a recovery shake have launched dinner, stretch sleep while you’re kind of like during base season this time of year, I guess all year round, I just do enough volume, but like.

[01:04:29] Keegan Swenson: It’s kind of the same. I just kind of get in this groove and I just like having consistency, like when there’s something that like makes me ride in the afternoon, I really, I don’t like it. Like, I try to avoid that at all costs unless it’s a recovery spin. So I’m like, I’ll wait until the evening and do my ride in the afternoon and just like do emails, whatever I have to do in the morning, I’ll do that.

[01:04:49] Keegan Swenson: But for proper training rides, everything else gets like set aside. Like that is my job. So I make sure that’s the priority. And I find like the nicest part of the day to do that into, um, you know, if it’s going to rain in the morning, I’ll make, maybe I’ll push my training off until noon and be like, okay, I need from noon till five or whatever it’s going to be.

[01:05:09] Keegan Swenson: I think I gotta be somewhat flexible. Right. And adjusted as needed. Um, yeah, in general, I think it just kind of this like system I’ve evolved and like it’s not super rigid as you saw, like, you know, Russell and we were talking, talking trash on me being like 15 minutes late, like that just,

[01:05:29] Jonathan Lee: you know, that’s just my

[01:05:30] Keegan Swenson: plan. Like I get ready and I go with. When I go

[01:05:36] Jonathan Lee: like that, it’s like that I’m Pablo Escobar standing out there. I like checking, like looking ponderously out at the, out of the weather. That’s Skeegan he just stepped outside on his porch to see if the weather is ideal and that’s what defines it.

[01:05:49] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:05:50] Keegan Swenson: And I think it makes a difference, like having all that stuff pretty dialed, you know, like, I think as a pro athlete, if you get too much else going on in your life and you’re trying to do this and that and your training, isn’t perfect. Then like eventually extreme every day has to be perfect, but it does add up.

[01:06:05] Keegan Swenson: And if you’re missing one day a week and you miss two days a week, and then maybe you only do three hours one day instead of five. And like that stuff adds up. And I think for me, like I try and focus on being as consistent as possible and doing what my coach tells me to do every day. And then if I have a bad race, it’s because I did something wrong.

[01:06:25] Keegan Swenson: Not because I didn’t do my training. Like I think I just always do the work and if something goes wrong, then it’s, that’s on me. And I know that wasn’t the bike. It wasn’t, my coach was falling. And while I wasn’t fit enough, like, I think I’m always fit enough to perform at races. It’s such a matter of.

[01:06:40] Keegan Swenson: Executing.

[01:06:42] Amber Pierce: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve, I’ve been Keegan. I’ve covered three key things that I just want to emphasize really quick for people listening. Cause these are three really good ways to remove friction from your training. One is training buddies. Having an accountability buddy is huge. It makes it so much more fun and much more motivating to get out.

[01:07:01] Amber Pierce: So if there’s somebody who is on a similar train plan to you, or wants to ride on the same day as you at the same time, dial that in because that

[01:07:08] Jonathan Lee: the more fun and additional thing too is like, you don’t even have to ride together with them because a lot of us are like the only time we have to train because of family and job and everything else is super early in the morning.

[01:07:19] Jonathan Lee: You can do group workouts with trainer road if somebody has the same workouts, but even then just having a person that you’d like, like, I mean, Keegan and I are friends, but like we text each other about our workouts. It’s like, I got this today and then afterward we’re like, that was awesome. It’s like, it’s this little thing of just, you can even just talk to your friends about your workouts instead of doing them with them.

[01:07:40] Jonathan Lee: You can even just have somebody to, to share that with. And that really does help. Like it adds another layer of accountability. Actually

[01:07:47] Ivy Audrain: I want to write you up.

[01:07:48] Amber Pierce: Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. That’s awesome. So the social component is huge. The second thing Keegan talked about getting the workouts done early in the morning, and I think this is really key for a lot of reasons, not just because of the weather.

[01:08:01] Amber Pierce: Um,

[01:08:08] Amber Pierce: depends on the person. I will say. Um, decision-making fatigue is a real thing. So as you go through your day, you’re going to have to make certain decisions. And if you’re making the decision to go outside and train later in the day, that gets harder and harder to decide to do. Um, and that’s one of the things that I think a lot of people, I definitely struggle with this.

[01:08:31] Amber Pierce: So if there’s something, if I’m trying to build a new habit, for example, I want to try to do that in the morning. Cause it’s a lot easier to decide to do that thing while I’m creating that habit. And then that leads me to the third thing, which is the more you can make your training habit. There’s so much less friction because you’re no longer deciding to do something.

[01:08:50] Amber Pierce: It becomes automatic. So like Keegan handling, any mechanical needs that the bike might where the bike might need attention immediately after the ride. I’m sure that’s not even something that you think about anymore. You make a note in your head during the ride that, you know, she needs a little bit of lube.

[01:09:05] Amber Pierce: I want to adjust my shifting a little bit when I get back. Boom, you do it. You’re not even making a decision about it. It’s just a habit. So thinking about your training and. Building really good habits establishing those habits. So they’re no longer decisions that will remove a ton of friction for you.

[01:09:21] Amber Pierce: Going

[01:09:21] Jonathan Lee: along with that for indoor training in particular, making sure that your bike is set up, making sure that your whatever needs to be charged is charged like your fans in place. A simple thing. I swear, like getting. It’s like $5 on Amazon. You can get a remote, like outlet switch for your fan. Like there’s little things you can do that.

[01:09:40] Jonathan Lee: Just make your training inside so much easier. And it just makes it like an automatic process. Now, like in train road, we’ve made it so that the app just loads and you’d see your workout and you can just go rather than having to find your workout. I’m coming soon. We’re working on a thing where if you’re, for some reason on the website, looking at your workout instead of in the app and you go, you’ll be able to hit load workout, and it’ll just open it in the app and you’ll just be ready to go and remembers your devices.

[01:10:05] Jonathan Lee: So they’re always paired. So you don’t have to go through that again. Like we’ve done a lot of different things within the app experience to do that very thing to, to remove decisions from it. So, and just make it habit or automate it. So it’s already taken care of, um, it’s a huge, it’s a huge thing. And I’m, I feel really fortunate too because my, my wife and my case, she’s like a fantastic accountability partner with this too.

[01:10:28] Jonathan Lee: She’ll ask me like, what’s your workout tomorrow. And then, and then on top of that, she’d be like, is there anything that I need to do to be able to make it easier? And then I asked the same thing for her and that’s just how we, so don’t be afraid to lean on people. And if you have them there, um, if you don’t have them there lean on them digitally.

[01:10:44] Jonathan Lee: I know that that may seem like disjointed and a bit strange, but like there’s, there’s somebody that you can reach out to that cares about you and your training, for sure. Um, even though it’s a small thing.

[01:10:56] Amber Pierce: Tag us tag us in your post about your workouts will hype you up.

[01:10:59] Jonathan Lee: Yeah, exactly. So I want to take a moment to talk about the times where everything’s taken care of.

[01:11:06] Jonathan Lee: Everything’s set. Let’s say that we have the perfect routine all set up, but then we are just struggling to get out the door. And I want to talk about a line where we all draw the line between self care and allowing yourself the leniency to skip the workout. And then at the same time, holding yourself accountable to the goals that you had and just getting yourself out the door to get it done.

[01:11:30] Jonathan Lee: Uh, Keegan you’re like, uh, you’re you’re I would classify you as like the tough love type, like that. That’s like what resonates with you? Like just harden up, get out there and do it, get it done. Right? Yeah. And Amber, I think that you have done a fantastic job at changing the narrative on our podcast and saying that like, Hey, like you don’t just have to drive yourself into the ground.

[01:11:51] Jonathan Lee: You’ve done a great job on that to Ivy because there’s some people that tough love themselves into absolute burnout and just like total lack of productivity. Like there’s nothing productive going on with the training they’re out there. They’re struggling through their failing workouts constantly yet.

[01:12:04] Jonathan Lee: They’re continually doing it. So I first want to ask Keegan, where do you draw your line at saying like, no, I do need to skip today. Like, and how do you wrestle with the emotional side of that, of feeling like you failed because you didn’t go out and get that scheduled workout done.

[01:12:23] Keegan Swenson: Um, Honestly, it doesn’t like, I just, I guess that doesn’t really happen to be honest.

[01:12:32] Jonathan Lee: I just,

[01:12:35] Keegan Swenson: I just, I just do it, um, sometimes, like, I don’t want to do it, but the fear of like doing that and the consequences that might have me, like losing a race or like losing fitness or whatever. I just, like, I think for me, like I’m a competitor and I like to win and that’s like, I love riding my bike. I enjoy just going, having fun.

[01:12:57] Keegan Swenson: But I think for me, like winning is like the biggest thing. Like that is why I raced bikes. So even if I don’t want to do it, I’m going to do it because I know it’s going to make me wind down the road. Um, and maybe that’s not like the healthiest thing or whatever, but it works for me. And I like, I’d be like, okay, I’m gonna do this workout.

[01:13:16] Keegan Swenson: It’s raining. I have like five by fives, which is my least favorite workout. I hate it. I’d rather

[01:13:21] Jonathan Lee: do anything else, but

[01:13:25] Keegan Swenson: I’ll, I’ll go do it. You know, like whatever, it’s fine. I’ll do it. And, um, yeah. So I guess like, as long as everything is, everything’s, everything’s going okay. And I feel good. Like, I’ll continue, but let’s say like, after that big nine day block, um, gym, my coach had put, like I had two or three recovery days before having like a two hour endurance day, which is also basically your recovery day.

[01:13:49] Keegan Swenson: Right. It’s pretty easy. And in my mind, I was like, man, after one, after one recovery day or after two days, I was like, man, I still feel like a little bit tired, like the texting. And like, I’m just going to push this two hour and during stay off another day, I’m going to do it one more day recovery. I think I need it.

[01:14:02] Keegan Swenson: And he’s like, yeah, that’s fine. Like, I think you have to know, like, you can push yourself really hard and you can like ride yourself into the ground, which I definitely do. But you also have to know, like when to draw the line and like a two hour endurance ride is not going to give you any fitness. Like it’s 70 TSS for me.

[01:14:22] Keegan Swenson: It’s like, it’s not that big a deal recovery ride is like 20 or 30 TSS. It’s like, you’re splitting hairs at that point. But like they’re extra recovery. Like the extra recovery, mental and physically from that recovery ride is actually gonna make, make me faster. So I’m going to push that endurance ride off one more day, like domain two hour or three hour endurance ride is just like, that’s a filler workout.

[01:14:42] Keegan Swenson: Right? It’s like it just something to keep the TSS up a little while, like kind of recovering, but not really training. So I think I kind of know that, like I know like Jim put that in there as like, ah, maybe if he’s not feeling good, he’ll just swap it or he’ll just text me or whatever. So I think you have, if you’re going to be like tough on yourself, you also have to be smart and know like where to draw the line and not like pound yourself into the ground, you know?

[01:15:04] Keegan Swenson: Um, that’s definitely hard, but I think you get better at it, but it’s definitely like rare for me to swap workouts or just. Do one, like if I have like those five by fives, I’ll just was to talking about, I see on the calendar, I dread them all week and I’m like, I don’t don’t want to do this. I don’t want to do this, but I’ll go do it.

[01:15:23] Keegan Swenson: And maybe I blow up after three and then I’ll try and do another two. And you know, sometimes you have to know too, like you get sons, you know, you have to push through a workout. And sometimes you have to know when to pull the 10 and go home. Um, which is always, it’s always hard, right? Like I always text texted him like, Hey, like I blew up after 1, 1, 1 rep today.

[01:15:42] Keegan Swenson: I think I’m just gonna call it. And some like, but he gets it. If you can’t make it through one, then obviously you’re still fatiguing your tires. You shouldn’t do it. But if you can make it through three, then you can probably make it through two more. So you just keep going. I think

[01:15:55] Keegan Swenson: there’s a

[01:15:56] Jonathan Lee: balance. I can’t

[01:15:58] Ivy Audrain: imagine what would have to happen to you to be like, all right, I’m going to pull up one today.

[01:16:08] Jonathan Lee: yeah. As I said, built different. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

[01:16:15] Amber Pierce: Uh, if I,

[01:16:17] Ivy Audrain: if everything’s set up right for consistency and everything’s ready to go. When I have trouble getting out the door, I try to look at why. And if it’s, if it’s just that, um, I’m a little tired. We’re a little fatigued. I have a rule, which is that I give myself.

[01:16:34] Ivy Audrain: Twenty-five minutes of writing to see what’s going on. And that doesn’t mean that I have to start my intervals or anything. I just have to, especially if I’m kitted up and just can’t get out of the door. Um, I try to just do the first twenty-five minutes, get my legs moving and like, see if being outside and, or, or being on the trainer and starting makes me those sensations go away.

[01:16:58] Ivy Audrain: But if it’s something like I might be getting sick or, uh, not feeling good or might be dealing with an injury, something like that, if that’s different, um, I might not start with the ride, but that’s generally my role if I’m just like, eh, I don’t know. I’m kinda tired, uh, getting late I’ll I’ll or just not feeling it I’ll start 25 minutes and see

[01:17:19] Amber Pierce: how it goes.

[01:17:20] Jonathan Lee: It’s amazing how, like, after that first, like sometimes it takes like, you know, 10 to 20 minutes somewhere around there, but you, you feel like a different person, right? It sounds

[01:17:30] Keegan Swenson: even takes more than that. You know, extended the text, like a solid for me at times, they’ll take an hour or two before, like you feel good on the bike I got in that nine day block, we did, like, I felt there was a couple days I woke up and I just felt horrible.

[01:17:40] Keegan Swenson: Like it hurt to walk around the house. My legs hurt everything to take it out there and you start, you start riding. And once you kind of warm up and you get the blood flow and like, you’re fine. I got, I can, I can do this. We’re good. And then you just keep gone and that makes sense. You do need to push through it for a little while, then it’ll get better.

[01:18:01] Keegan Swenson: But like, obviously you have to know, like, if you’re getting sick or if like you have an injury in your knees, like actually hurting, just pushing through it, just going to make it worse. Like you’re not going to do any, you know, you’re just gonna do more damage, more harm than good. So like you have to figure out how to figure out where to draw that line.

[01:18:15] Amber Pierce: Yeah. Yeah. I’m with Ivy, I have the same rule and, and I think, um, an important distinction here is that when you are training at a really high level for a really long time, um, like Ivy Keegan, me, Jonathan, you get to a point where you are really, really good at knowing when you need to back off. So there are some days where I would just know like, Nope, not training today or today I just need a ride endurance.

[01:18:39] Amber Pierce: I’m not going to do any intervals. Um, and I would know a hundred percent, this is the right decision. But then there are those days where I’m not a hundred percent sure. And I really I’m genuinely not sure if I’m just kind of tired. And like I said, I’ll feel better after I get on the bike or if I really need to dial it back.

[01:18:56] Amber Pierce: And I had the same rule as IVL I gave myself 20 minutes. That was my role. Same thing. It was like, okay, I’m going to go through the motions, get over that initial friction of getting on the bike. See if I feel better. Cause some days, you know, you, you write into it and you’re like, oh, I’m so glad I got out today.

[01:19:12] Amber Pierce: And other days it’s like, Nope, this is not happening. And at least then I could take the day off and not feel guilty about it. Like I wouldn’t spend the whole day racking, my brain wondering, you know, should I have trained it today? Am I just being lazy? Am I, you know, no. Then, then I, I gave myself a chance to see, I know for sure rest is the right call today.

[01:19:34] Amber Pierce: And I can feel really, really good about that decision. So, um, if you’re a person who knows yourself really, really well, then get comfortable, get comfortable making those calls and trusting yourself. And if you don’t know yourself really well, and this is something that you’re still trying to figure out that 20, 25 minute rule is a really good way to start learning.

[01:19:53] Amber Pierce: What are the sensations that warrant a day off for sure. And then what are the sensations that are maybe just me needing to get out and have a longer warmup today? Um, but it can help to take notes on this stuff, but really pay attention to that because it’s a valuable thing to learn about yourself.

[01:20:09] Jonathan Lee: One thing, sorry, go ahead.

[01:20:11] Keegan Swenson: I was going to say, and even being like, yeah, I’ve been a professional for the last, like 10, 12 years now racing and I still, I still make mistakes, you know, like a few weeks ago actually, or a month ago, like I was feeling a little bit sick and I was like, ah, it’s fine. Like it’s not that big a deal. Just like, it’s probably just, you know, it is what it is fine.

[01:20:31] Keegan Swenson: So when I had it hard, like five hour endurance. And I started feeling off. I was like, man, I don’t know. I feel off. And then like halfway through, I started feeling like this is really, really hard, like trying to do like 250 Watts felt like full gas. I was like, man, this probably, I probably shouldn’t have even came out today afterward.

[01:20:48] Keegan Swenson: And then I got really sick afterward and I just like, I shouldn’t not train that ride then maybe I think we’ve been better. But like, so I think it’s hard to start to differentiate sometimes like, ah, like it’s hard to find that balance of like when you should go out and when you shouldn’t and maybe you should just do an easy spin instead of a hard ride.

[01:21:07] Keegan Swenson: But like only once you’re committed to it, you’re like, ah, like I’ll ride through it. Like give it a couple hours. I’ll warm up. Like, you know, so it’s like, you still make mistakes, you know, it happens, you know, I try and like get better about it, but it’s just not everyone knows. Perfect. So like don’t, if it’s done, you have to make those mistakes in order to learn, even if you make them every year eventually.

[01:21:26] Jonathan Lee: And because of lifestyle changes and because of training changes and everything else, you’ll also have new baselines that you’ll have to calibrate to, like right now doing a triathlon training, uh, I’ve been complaining about this to Keegan for like, it turns out triathlon training is really hard. Uh, like when you swim and you run, it makes by card.

[01:21:44] Jonathan Lee: So, uh, that’s been like, so that’s been something that’s new to like adjust to it’s like, oh, okay. So like, I should just feel like. Right now, like I’m getting used to this different level of fatigue. It’s not necessarily more, not necessarily less. It’s just different. And I feel different coming into workouts.

[01:22:00] Jonathan Lee: Right? So, and if you change your training volume or change the focus of your training, or you’re doing a different type of work or get a new job, or you have something else change outside of just the cycling training portion of your life, you have to kind of like normalize to that. So you have to kind of like feel things out for a while and then regain your confidence in your ability to be able to assess those situations.

[01:22:22] Jonathan Lee: So, um, it’s all, it’s all part of it. The one thing I do want to hammer home, that’s so important, especially for all of us is I am a firm believer in the earlier you can get your training in, in the day, the less obstacles will stand in your way to getting it done. I’m seeing it in the live chat right now.

[01:22:39] Jonathan Lee: People are saying this too, that like, yeah, like I planned my training for the afternoon. And then by that time, you know, I have a kid that’s sick or I had to go and do this errand or my work, you know, through a huge, like fire drill at me. And I had to totally change everything that I had planned. And there goes your training.

[01:22:56] Jonathan Lee: And when that happens, time, after time after time, it can be really frustrating. And de-motivating, and you can’t like, will your way through that because it’s like, oh no, I like, I literally have to work for six more hours right now. And I can’t do it. Or I have to take care of a sick child, whatever the situation might be.

[01:23:12] Jonathan Lee: All of us probably face those where we simply can’t overcome them. So. Times where you have to stop and think like, okay, so as the problem, everything else, or is the problem that I’m trying to pose an unrealistic expectation of being able to have a very consistent life to work around my training. And that’s probably where it lies.

[01:23:29] Jonathan Lee: So instead he just had to think, okay, so where can I position my training in a spot where it is less prone to influence or be influenced by all these variables? Right. So training in the morning is really hard, but it does beat, not draining. Right? So, um, as long as it’s, you know, something that’s sustainable for you, let’s get into some rapid fire questions.

Rapid fire questions

[01:23:50] Jonathan Lee: What’s your favorite bike color, and which is fastest. We’ll go Amber, IVG again, in that rotation on these Amber, I’m a big

[01:23:59] Amber Pierce: fan of the own braise. I’ve been

[01:24:00] Jonathan Lee: seeing the say that the fades is that fastest. Yeah. If it looks good, it’s fastest. Yeah. Silly question to add to, to in the silly question. Yeah. Ivy, I don’t know

[01:24:14] Ivy Audrain: what’s fastest, but the cool thing about squid bikes is that you can paint them.

[01:24:19] Ivy Audrain: I’m currently in the process of sandblasting and stripping, uh, my two race bikes and I get to repaint them. Um, so one of them is going to be very, uh, 2008, pop punk splattered

[01:24:35] Amber Pierce: vibes, and pretty excited.

[01:24:37] Jonathan Lee: Nice. I dig it Keegan. Uh,

[01:24:45] Jonathan Lee: Uh, what I would expect

[01:24:48] Amber Pierce: Matt or I asked Matt because it’s lighter.

[01:24:53] Keegan Swenson: I just love the look of a black bike. I can just look really cool. I don’t mind, little splashes of color. Like one of my blurs is black with a little bit of like, kind of orangy color, orange pinkish color for the logo. I think that looks cool.

[01:25:05] Keegan Swenson: Um, in general, I just fan of kind of just dark black, but just look good. They always look good and they always will. I don’t think like colors come and go. And they’re like, there’s different styles of color that like kind of come and go throughout the years. But I think black bikes always look cool and I think,

[01:25:21] Jonathan Lee: yeah, yeah.

[01:25:22] Jonathan Lee: Agreed. Black bikes are always, uh, I like them best. I’m sure there’s somebody out there is going like dad joke opportunity or nerd joke. I think red is technically the fastest color, like actually as a color in terms of like light and frequency and such. So there we go. But yeah, black bikes, I will Keegan use arrow bars for gravel racing.

[01:25:41] Jonathan Lee: We don’t have to go into round on this one. This one’s just for Keegan because that’s a, that’s a controversial point coming from Mr. Bush friend of the man guest.

[01:25:50] Keegan Swenson: I don’t know. Probably not, but I might, I’m not counting it out. I might test some, I like, I’m not here to like, enjoy and have a good, like I’m not here to have a good time racing gravel, but I’m also here to win.

[01:26:00] Keegan Swenson: And if I, if it railroad bars me and I’m gonna win that, I’m going to use them. So I’m not going to say no. As much as like I would, I don’t, I don’t think they’re cool or anything. And I think they should just say, I think like the whole gravel, like all the series should just be like, you can’t use arrow bars and that would solve so many problems because then no one can use them, then it’s fine.

[01:26:19] Keegan Swenson: And then no one looks bad. It doesn’t look safer. Like, cause I know I do agree on like aerobars have a place. Yeah. My groups, I think like they’re sketchy and they can cause crashes. And I think like if you’re going to use them, you have to really know when it’s safe to use them. And when it’s not safe to use them.

[01:26:38] Keegan Swenson: And I think a lot of people have a hard time with that. So I think they should just say you can’t use them, but since it’s allowed, maybe I will. Maybe I won’t, I don’t know.

[01:26:46] Jonathan Lee: Whatever’s faster. Whatever’s faster. How do you deal with writing? Oh, wait, one, one quick thing. I forgot to do this at the beginning, but uh, congrats to friend of the podcast, material Jorgensen, um, movie star rider.

[01:26:58] Jonathan Lee: He got third, I believe at tour to LA Provence. I believe it could be mixing it up with a different race, but third on a mountaintop stage. And it was cool because Mateo is not like a short, tiny, little stereotypical, like worlds who are climber. Yeah. He was smashing, he blew blast past Julian, Ella, Felipe, which is pretty darn cool.

[01:27:15] Jonathan Lee: So, uh, it’s always, uh, and yes, we’re from the United States of America. Of course. So it’s really, uh, we’d like to be able to cheer for our riders and the pro tour. It, we don’t get as many chances to cheers, you know, they’re French or Italian there’s anybody else? So good job entail way to go. Keegan. How do you deal with riding with having fresh tattoos?

[01:27:34] Jonathan Lee: And when do you start riding again? You don’t get tattoos, though. If Sophia is listening to this, you don’t get tattoos. So no. Yeah. I don’t deal with them.

[01:27:47] Keegan Swenson: Um, I mean, I wouldn’t get a tattoo and go out and train right away, but I’ll get one the day before and then I made it. So as long as you keep it clean and I like to use Tegaderm or Sani Durham, keep it covered.

[01:27:59] Keegan Swenson: And then yeah. Then put like, it use like the, like the arm warmers that are like the sun sleep things. If they’re on your arms, um, kind of, it’s good to keep out of the sun. I mean, it’s basically like a really gnarly sunburn. So if you’re getting sun on it, then it really hurts and it can just mess it up and that, um, but also I’m not a doctor I’m like tattoo artist.

[01:28:20] Keegan Swenson: So don’t ask me

[01:28:25] Jonathan Lee: this one that comes from somebody who says their name is I’m. Self-conscious about asking too many questions. That’s actually what they said their names. So they say, do I need to say, yeah, it’s really, it’s called. Ask is like where it goes podcasts. So do I need to take recovery weeks if I’m only doing one to two training rides a week, probably three to four hours training.

[01:28:45] Jonathan Lee: I will check. I will chess, not checkers on this one with you. Uh I’m self-conscious about asking too many questions that since that’s your name, it’s not about whether you should take one or not just based on frequency. It’s about dose. So is this sufficient dose, the three to four hours training time so that you feel like you’re getting fatigued after three to four weeks, then you need a recovery week.

[01:29:06] Jonathan Lee: So people that train less days don’t necessarily not need recovery weeks. It’s just the point of recovery week is give your body a chance to de-load basically. So the stress decreases a bit and you can catch up to that adaptation that you should be making along the way. And then you, you know, restart.

[01:29:24] Jonathan Lee: So, you know, one to two days doesn’t mean that you might not. It also might mean, yes, it’s not enough stress for you. And as a result, you don’t need a recovery week, but that’s the whole point of it. Uh, this one I think is from key or 4g and two is soul crushing, an innate skill or one that can be developed.

[01:29:43] Keegan Swenson: I think you can develop it, need to learn, like to learn people’s weaknesses and learn how to like, you know, rub some salt in their wounds. And I think you can figure it out. You know, like sometimes it has been hard to think it helps you in mental games. Like you can like learn how to just make people hurt and make you think, make them think that you aren’t hurting.

[01:30:04] Keegan Swenson: Um, I don’t know. There’s a lot that goes into it, but I think there’s a lot more to bike racing than just fitness. I think like mental is half the battle. So if you can make someone think that you aren’t hurting and. They are, then you’ve already beat them. So

[01:30:18] Jonathan Lee: it’s like you learn it is fun. Yeah.

[01:30:24] Amber Pierce: When you line up for a bike race, everyone there is consenting to competition.

[01:30:28] Amber Pierce: So it’s a fun arena where you get to do this stuff and you get to adopt this mindset and, and play, you know? So, um, I just want to share a quick quote. When I first started bike racing, my then boyfriend now, husband, who was racing as a cap one at the time, uh, he had a saying, which was the bicycle is a tool surgical tool to remove another man’s dignity.

[01:30:52] Jonathan Lee: I like that. That’s a good quote. That’s a good one that, that resonates with me as well. That’s a bike racers. Yeah. Oh yeah. It’s a big motivation. Like I think like if I can make the people that showed up or that race with me, if I can make them on the way home say, I just shouldn’t have even come. I wish I did.

[01:31:13] Jonathan Lee: I wish I didn’t even show up. That’s like the, you know, you’ve really won. Yes. There’s winning the race and then there’s winning the race. Right? Sorry, Ivy. No,

[01:31:24] Amber Pierce: I, I’m

[01:31:25] Ivy Audrain: not trying to, um, like toot my own horn, but, um, there were some, uh, smaller level,

[01:31:36] Amber Pierce: like local cross

[01:31:36] Ivy Audrain: races. Um, Where after I showed up and went up to register, um, someone just left,

[01:31:45] Amber Pierce: left, and I was like, damn, sorry,

[01:31:48] Jonathan Lee: you won before you run before you won.

[01:31:52] Jonathan Lee: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, no, nobody should just turn around because somebody shows up, you’re showing up to do battle. That’s the point, right? Like, and like you said, Amber, it’s like a light it’s like, once you enter that competitive arena, it’s a license to do that. Like, like it’s, it’s physical, it’s mental it’s cycle.

[01:32:09] Jonathan Lee: The whole thing like that, that’s what it is. I

[01:32:13] Amber Pierce: right. Even if you’re the person who is probably going to be the nail and not the hammer that day, there’s still so much that you can learn from that really genuinely you can be focusing on process goals. You can focus on watching the, the higher level of writers and watch, watch how they execute, watch what they do learn from them.

[01:32:32] Amber Pierce: So, um, I encourage everybody, you know, competition could be really fun because this is really cooperative effort in learning how to get better as an athlete. So no matter what, you can teach somebody else, somebody, something, and no matter what, you can learn something from somebody else. So, um, get out there and have fun learning

[01:32:49] Jonathan Lee: about it.

[01:32:50] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Good, good way to say it. Amor. Uh, what is your favorite bar? What is your preferred bar with on road and mountain bikes? Let’s go Amber Ivy Keegan. Ooh. Uh, I dunno if you have a mountain bike, one that, you know,

[01:33:04] Amber Pierce: like off hand, I don’t even know. I don’t know what it is on the mountain bike on the road.

[01:33:08] Amber Pierce: I like wide bars, so I ride 42 centimeters center to center.

[01:33:13] Jonathan Lee: Yep. Which actually comes like standard on some bikes or for women’s bikes. They usually give you really narrow bars. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We’re at

[01:33:22] Amber Pierce: 38th

[01:33:23] Ivy Audrain: on the road, but uh,

[01:33:25] Amber Pierce: 4,244 is for

[01:33:27] Ivy Audrain: cross, um, and seven 40 for

[01:33:32] Jonathan Lee: exi. Nice Keegan.

[01:33:35] Keegan Swenson: Um, 40 or 42 on the road.

[01:33:38] Keegan Swenson: I have 40 days of my gravel bike and 42 on the road, but then like going back and forth, I think I like the forties better. So I’m gonna transition that way. Um, and then seven 20 on the cross country, bikes and seven 40 on the Enduro bikes and e-bikes and whatever.

[01:33:56] Jonathan Lee: So I’m forties on the road. Uh, if I was racing cyclocross, I’d probably be 40 twos.

[01:34:02] Jonathan Lee: Um, and then if I’m on the mountain bike, I like seven 20 for XC. So same as Keegan, I guess. Um, 7 44 Enduro stuff, which I know like somebody out there is like, what are you doing? You need to have 800 millimeter, wide bars, Richie rude, who is an absolute tank of a human he’s like two humans put together, like in terms of his like shoulder width, it’s absurd.

[01:34:25] Jonathan Lee: He runs seven forties. So there you go. If he can. I think that the whole argument of like shoulder width and bars, and I’m a big, massive masculine man, therefore I must have 800 millimeter wide bars. I think that that’s like absolutely an implication that you’re hoping that we catch on to, with your like wide bar with, well, it’s, uh, you know, it’s broken, but yeah, exactly.

[01:34:47] Jonathan Lee: It’s going to hit your he’s going to do everything else. I think Richie manages to do it pretty well. So if it’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for me. Uh, another question, how often do you and Sophia ride together? And once again, we’ll just target this one, the Keegan,

[01:35:04] Amber Pierce: unfortunately.

[01:35:05] Keegan Swenson: Yeah, pretty much, pretty much we don’t. Um, maybe like once every two weeks or so,

[01:35:18] Jonathan Lee: she would ride

[01:35:20] Keegan Swenson: together to the shootout, um, if recovery days lineups and I’m, so we’ll do those together. Um, sometimes she’ll jump on and kind of motor pace me on like a hard endurance day, which works pretty well.

[01:35:32] Keegan Swenson: Cause my heart endurance base of it’s flat is also like hers. So she’s in the draft, which is good. Um, I think it’s kinda good. I mean, for her it’s like she can motor pay sunny day of the week behind me, which is like pretty good advantage. I think. Um, also you can. Yeah, average a few miles hour faster on the road.

[01:35:55] Keegan Swenson: So then we can do, she can do a bigger loops and kinda do some stuff that like, maybe she is impossible in four hours alone. You know what I mean? So I think it’s a, yeah, those, even those are rare. She only helps on here and there. So, because she knows that she’s just along for the ride. If she gets dropped, then she’s on her own.

[01:36:13] Keegan Swenson: There’s no waiting. Um, yeah, I think it’s funny. We say like a lot of our competition, like they’ll train together, but I think for us, like, I mean, we lived together, spent a lot of time together. It’s like, that’s our job. So I think of it as like, unless it works out that both of us can do our job together, then someone either she’s running too hard or I’d be riding too easy.

[01:36:31] Keegan Swenson: So, yeah. Um,

[01:36:34] Jonathan Lee: yeah. Yeah. I’m excited to see how Sophia does this year. Watch out everybody. Who’s going to raise Sophia. She’s going to be firing. So, um, could Amber beat Jonathan and a triathlon? Yes.

[01:36:50] Jonathan Lee: Keegan loves the fact that I suck at swimming. He’s just like the

[01:36:53] Keegan Swenson: center of water for a second. You could pass them. And just like,

[01:36:59] Jonathan Lee: like yesterday I was swimming next to this guy who had a UCLA cap on. And when I’m swimming, I literally feel a current from when he blows by me. Like in both directions, it rocks the boat, it rocks the boat, just like, man, I’m so slow, but Hey, I’m getting to the point yesterday. I did, uh, I slammed my first K so thousand meters or a thousand yards, uh, 7,000 yards.

[01:37:24] Jonathan Lee: And it was doing, and it was too flat basically for a hundred time on that. So I’m not trying to swim fast. In fact, I’m like consciously trying to swim slow, if that makes sense, because I’m just trying to be comfortable, build awareness and build that proprioception to be able to be like, cause before when you’re drowning, it’s actually really hard to tell what your lab is doing, for example.

[01:37:47] Jonathan Lee: So you don’t really care about what your lats are doing and how they’re engaging, uh, when you’re drowning. So, uh, now I’m getting to the point where I can actually start to feel things better where I’m like, okay, I actually do feel that like I could be straighter here or I am twisting and bending at my hips and instead I need to do this.

[01:38:02] Jonathan Lee: So I’m actually trying to swim slow, but Hey, I’m already pretty rapid improvement. So you’re throwing.

[01:38:10] Keegan Swenson: So

[01:38:13] Jonathan Lee: Keegan’s going to do an Ironman triathlon one at some point too. Um, we talked about this. Yep. Yeah. So we’ll do that and then I’ll smoke them. Keegan. How about that? You probably will. I’m not very good, faster, smaller, good runner.

[01:38:25] Jonathan Lee: Even though your mom was like a high-level collegiate swimmer. I mean,

[01:38:29] Keegan Swenson: I can swim. Like I swam competitively when I was a kid. So like, I think it would probably come back. I just really, I don’t like it. I don’t like water. I don’t like, I don’t like being in it. So

[01:38:39] Jonathan Lee: you’re like, you’re a Labrador. You’re like a lab.

[01:38:43] Jonathan Lee: He’s a Labrador on the bike where it’s just like, throw ball, chase, ball, go get ball. That’s like Keegan. And then, but he hates water at the same time. So you’ve broken the Labrador thing and then running. I don’t know. I don’t know.

[01:38:55] Keegan Swenson: I mean, I, I can run, but, um, I think I’m very good at it. I got seen horribly inefficient, you know, like, uh, I feel like running a five minute miles, like pretty much full gas, but then I feel like I can run like seven minute pace for a long time.

[01:39:09] Keegan Swenson: It just like, I think my, my, uh, technique would need a little bit of love. The ho the half would he’d be able to help me

[01:39:15] Jonathan Lee: out though. Yeah. Cause he would absolutely destroy me on the bike. You would probably destroy me on the swim and I don’t know if I could beat you on the run, so, but I still, I’m going to hold onto hope.

[01:39:26] Jonathan Lee: I’m going to smash you in an iron man one day and now he’s so much fun. I will rub it in your face for so long if that happens. So, okay. Next one. Who’s more punk rock Keegan or Ivy if Ivy’s painting her bike to be oh eight, like email. Yeah,

[01:39:43] Ivy Audrain: no, I I’m going to say Thai because, uh, Keegan in terms of music taste for, for, um, maybe me in terms of.

[01:39:53] Ivy Audrain: Anti-authoritarianism music tastes absolutely more.

[01:40:01] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. Yeah. It’s true. Keegan, Lexis, punk rock stuff. Do you object to any of that Keegan or? No? You’re good. No, I that’s a pretty

[01:40:08] Keegan Swenson: fair assessment. Yeah. Cool. I just

[01:40:11] Jonathan Lee: do my thing. Uh, I’m going to direct this one to Amber. Is it okay to take a break during the ramp test?

[01:40:18] Amber Pierce: Short answer? No. Um, so it’s, it’s a protocol for a reason and it’s gonna, it’s designed this way. So it’s meant to be really hard. Um, and it’s not meant to be an interval session. It’s, it’s a ramp test. Um, but if you dislike that, you can now use our AI FTP detection. Uh, so you don’t have to take the ramp test at all.

[01:40:37] Amber Pierce: So you can actually take a break through the whole thing and do a workout. That’s more fun that does give you intervals with breaks. Um, so if you want to do that, just head over to your trainer road account on the website, go to your account, go to early access, click on enable where you see AI FTP detection, and the next time you have a ramp test, when it’s your next workout on the career page, you’ll see a little button new one that says use FTP detection.

[01:41:03] Amber Pierce: You can just hit that button. Um, we’ll give you what we think your productive predicted FTP is. You can accept that and go do another word.

[01:41:11] Jonathan Lee: From Aiken. They can figure all that stuff out. Yeah. Just go do it. You don’t have to do it. You can do it. It just tells you what it is. See Ramy DC, Rainmaker scared yesterday on his stories that he put a ramp test on his calendar.

[01:41:27] Jonathan Lee: And then, so he took the ramp test and he said, so I clicked and it was done. And it was the best test had ever taken. He said something like that. So I agree. Preferred swimwear by the hosts, I assume you mean for like actual swimming, swimming, Ivy? Did you like, instead of just like lounging at the pool

[01:41:43] Amber Pierce: piece?

[01:41:43] Amber Pierce: I don’t know exactly. Yeah. One piece, I guess it’s gotta be

[01:41:48] Ivy Audrain: best for try,

[01:41:49] Amber Pierce: right? Yeah.

[01:41:51] Jonathan Lee: Let’s suit. Uh, for, for, for men, there’s quite a few different choices. There’s like jammers, which are basically like bike short length. And then there’s like a, you can wear Speedos or you can wear like a short, like boxer, brief style ones, or you can wear a buoyancy shorts, which are basically just like wet suit shorts, which are sweet.

[01:42:10] Jonathan Lee: And they help with, uh, it’s kinda like wearing like a pole boy, just nowhere near as effective as that. Um, there’s a lot of different choices, but wetsuits, like if you can, yeah. It’s a hundred percent. If you’re in a pool, buoyancy shorts rock. I like them a lot.

[01:42:27] Jonathan Lee: Cool

[01:42:29] Keegan Swenson: shorts here. So

[01:42:32] Jonathan Lee: which hosts would win in an arm? Wrestling contest? Not me. Not me. Not. I have bad busted up elbows. And like, if I’m putting like, force like that direction on things. Oh, it gets real bad. Real bad. Okay.

[01:42:52] Amber Pierce: put money on every

[01:42:53] Jonathan Lee: two. This would be good. We need to see it. Maybe leverage. I dunno. No, I dunno. Okay. Uh, next one. Does anything make all of you nervous about racing or are you experienced enough to not get nervous anymore? Um, I get excited.

[01:43:11] Amber Pierce: Yeah. And I think when I, early on, when I was racing, I used to get really nervous.

[01:43:14] Amber Pierce: Um, my husband David, again, he always has these little nuggets of wisdom. He used to be a ski racer and he raised slalom. So whenever I would get nervous before a bike race, he’d be like, why are you nervous? You literally have hours to figure it out. And that was a good point. Um, but I, I like,

[01:43:32] Jonathan Lee: um, like 32 seconds of a slalom racer.

[01:43:36] Amber Pierce: I, I like the feeling. I like having a different feeling before a race than I do before a training ride. Like I like having that, that hype. Um, but as long as it’s positive and it doesn’t like tip over into feeling psyched out. Um, and I think I had a really good balance with that toward the end of my career.

[01:43:55] Jonathan Lee: Um, Amber or Ivy, sorry.

[01:43:58] Amber Pierce: Uh,

[01:43:59] Ivy Audrain: I think I used to confuse being nervous. Just being excited. Um, I don’t think nervous is the right way to describe how I feel or really ever felt about race. Like being nervous to me would be, uh, like worrying about things that could go wrong or, or like what if statements? And I don’t, um, think that I do that, uh, before races,

[01:44:25] Amber Pierce: um, get really excited and, uh,

[01:44:28] Ivy Audrain: anxious and high heart rate and stuff like that, but not nervous

[01:44:33] Jonathan Lee: Keegan.

[01:44:34] Keegan Swenson: Um, I’d say mostly, mostly excited. I’d say there’s a rare occasions where I’m a little bit nervous

[01:44:40] Jonathan Lee: if it’s something that

[01:44:44] Keegan Swenson: even then, like, I’d say it’s 90% excited, 10% nervous just cause I know there’s like a small part of me that like, I just don’t know what I’m doing, so, which is cool. Like I’m excited for that unknown, you know? Or like

[01:44:55] Jonathan Lee: when I’m talking in the background,

[01:44:58] Keegan Swenson: actually it’s quite Griffin. Griffin gets excited sometimes

[01:45:03] Jonathan Lee: Griffin, Easter, who I’m super excited to see how he does, uh, this year in the lifetime grand priests races that he does.

[01:45:08] Jonathan Lee: It’s gonna be awesome. Yeah. Good guy. Fantastic guy. Everyone should go follow Griffin on social media, by the way, he had amazing like amazing performances then flat tires last year, it was super frustrating or like mechanicals and. I think he could have won a couple of really big races. And he also is a writer that is doing fantastic things at this foundation to that B cure foundation.

[01:45:30] Jonathan Lee: He’s just awesome. Go follow Griffin. He’s really cool. Um, I don’t get nervous. I get excited. My son gets excited and he thinks that’s nerves. So he, we always like stop and talk about that. We’re like, is it nerves or is it excitement? And, uh, he’s naturally pretty tentative. So he leans toward the nervous side.

[01:45:47] Jonathan Lee: I think that all of us probably have some filtering to do with that, like, and to try to understand it. So the one thing I will say though, is that, uh, I don’t get nervous before races, but I do get nervous sometimes in the middle of races, like Tulsa tough and that crap, because I nearly died like 10 times from riders, just like literally going left to right.

[01:46:09] Jonathan Lee: And just cleaning out my wheel and somehow staying up and like terrible decisions being made. I was 100% nervous in the middle of that race. Zero question.

[01:46:20] Jonathan Lee: Oh gosh. It was so sketchy. Yeah. Oh, it was terrible. Um, okay. Gonna fit in some more ones. Okay. If I can’t fit in or fit all my training in what’s better to skip threshold or sweet spot matters about your goals are like, if you’re, if you’re training for a 40 K TT, do not skip your threshold sessions. That is key.

[01:46:39] Jonathan Lee: Um, if you’re training for something that’s like lower endurance or something else, then yeah. You can skip that threshold workout, but it’s all about your goals so matters. Yeah.

[01:46:47] Amber Pierce: Also when

[01:46:48] Ivy Audrain: you’re using adaptive training, uh, you don’t have to worry about which to skip. Like if you can’t fit in your training on that day, don’t complete your workout and it, after training we’ll make the changes necessary to make sure you don’t have to wonder if it should be special or a sweet spot.

[01:47:03] Ivy Audrain: Okay. And rearrange those energy systems to make sure you do make up for that later.

[01:47:09] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. Recovery day.

[01:47:12] Keegan Swenson: Like if you’re gonna skip any day, recovery day is like almost an off day. Like it is great to do recovery days and there was a purpose for them. But if you’re gonna, if you have any Dave to throw out, that’d be the best.

[01:47:22] Keegan Swenson: I would think

[01:47:24] Jonathan Lee: if you skip a 10 key days a year, if you think about it, adding it up that way, like it actually does start to have an effect. Right. So you just don’t want to skip the high priority key days. So, and key the best way to figure that out is, is it building toward the goals of your event and that’s or if you don’t have an event, the goal that you have with training know, whatever it might be.

[01:47:46] Jonathan Lee: So, okay. Uh, next one. Best pancakes from chain restaurants, Keegan. You’re the authority on this one. Mr. Pancake guy, you can start there and then we’ll wrap back around. Honestly,

[01:47:56] Keegan Swenson: I have no idea. I don’t really get pancakes, but I can go out to eat, eat breakfast. Honestly, I don’t really get something that I don’t make it home every day.

[01:48:04] Keegan Swenson: Like some omelet or something. So I, I have no, no authority.

[01:48:10] Jonathan Lee: You peg in cakes are good. Those sourdough pancakes were delicious by the way. Those are good. Yeah. You know, Okay, I’ll do my best.

[01:48:21] Ivy Audrain: I would never ever order pancakes from a

[01:48:24] Jonathan Lee: restaurant, strong stance, strong opinion, held strong, the waffles. You go

[01:48:31] Amber Pierce: to brunch

[01:48:32] Ivy Audrain: and it’s $12 for a Belgium waffle.

[01:48:35] Ivy Audrain: And I’m like, what is it? You never ever do that? I really try not to order breakfast from restaurants,

[01:48:46] Keegan Swenson: breakfast

[01:48:46] Amber Pierce: burrito.

[01:48:47] Ivy Audrain: So my go go-to

[01:48:49] Jonathan Lee: Amber, do you have an opinion? Denny’s I hop something like that. I assume what they’re asking for. I

[01:48:55] Amber Pierce: can’t say chain restaurant, but I have a really fond memory of growing up on a swim team.

[01:48:58] Amber Pierce: Once in a while we would get the sweats skip morning practice and go out to breakfast. And that was here in Reno where most places that are open that early are casinos. And there was a really awesome restaurant. And I, I’m not sure if it’s still here anymore, but silver dollar restaurant had just awesome pancakes.

[01:49:15] Amber Pierce: I don’t know if it’s just cause they tasted better. Cause it was we’re doing, we’re eating pancakes instead of training. Um,

[01:49:23] Jonathan Lee: if you hadn’t, if you give me any food and say you can have this or swimming, it will be the tastiest thing I’ve ever had an understandable beach vacation or ski break. Each

[01:49:37] Amber Pierce: I’d say beach as long as they’re surfing involved. But I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t refuse either.

[01:49:42] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. Keegan. Yeah, it depends on the time of year, you know?

[01:49:49] Keegan Swenson: Yeah. Sometimes you don’t want to be at ski resorts because they’re just so busy and crazy, but sometimes you also don’t want to be at the beach.

[01:49:57] Jonathan Lee: Oh, ski break does. I’m not at a resort in my mind. I’m like touring totally alone. Should I consume the calories I burn on a, this is a good question. Should I consume the calories I burn on that particular day or average for the week?

[01:50:09] Jonathan Lee: I’m just going to say average for the week. I’m going to override everybody else’s opinion on this one. I think it’s a fantastic idea. Instead of trying to feel like every day you have to go to like zeros. Like I dunno, I, I it’s, it’s healthy. Like it’s super unhealthy brought this up and I think it’s a brilliant idea.

[01:50:27] Jonathan Lee: And Pete, Pete should make the app, like for this, he was like, instead of worrying about everyday closing out, like I’m balanced, I’m at zero calories or I’m at 100 calories or whatever, it might be like, relax a little bit and like, look at this on a scale of weak and then quit obsessing over the details so much because here’s what they get through.

[01:50:46] Jonathan Lee: That gets really bad. Let’s say that you have an easy day, then you have a super big volume day, and then you have an easy day thereafter. You’re going to be tempted to be like, I’m going to fuel a bunch on the day where I’m doing all the work. But before that, since it was an easy day, you’re going to come into pleaded.

[01:51:02] Jonathan Lee: And then after that, when you should be recovering, which is one of the things I’ve learned from Keegan, like you don’t just starve yourself on your days. Like your easier days in the middle of a training block like that. Like if you starve yourself on those days, that just means you’re going to go into bleed it into the next days.

[01:51:16] Jonathan Lee: So avoid all this overthinking lax about it. And don’t worry about zeroing out every day. I

[01:51:22] Keegan Swenson: just eat when you’re hungry. And when you do, when you have a lot of training or a big week, then eat, eat past when you’re hungry, just keep eating. And then when you have a recovery week, don’t eat as much. I think people overthink this way too much.

[01:51:35] Keegan Swenson: It’s pretty

[01:51:35] Jonathan Lee: simple.

[01:51:37] Amber Pierce: I’m just thinking

[01:51:38] Ivy Audrain: about, uh, someone averaging out for a week waiting until Sunday and being like, oh no. And just eating,

[01:51:48] Jonathan Lee: trying to average it out

[01:51:49] Amber Pierce: and just

[01:51:49] Jonathan Lee: eating so much food in the 1800 behind.

[01:51:52] Amber Pierce: Totally bogus.

[01:51:53] Ivy Audrain: Yeah. That’s why I’m like, no, don’t do that because I can imagine our athletes taking that and running with it and being like I ate 6,000 calories today.

[01:52:02] Ivy Audrain: Cause I had to get

[01:52:06] Jonathan Lee: super bowl Sunday and say CAISO um, okay, next one. Are you doing any world cups this year? Yeah. Um, no. Uh, have you ever consumed alcohol on the bike and did it turn out surprisingly? Okay. Sun’s for everybody has like a guilty Childspace

[01:52:32] Jonathan Lee: you guys don’t have to answer this

[01:52:37] Jonathan Lee: cliff bar racing that usually ride to the cliff family winery, mid camp midday, and then they ride back. Uh, Nate’s told that story on the podcast before, but, um, so you can go back through the icon archives and try to find that one. Okay. Next one. Favorite pre-workout meal or snack. And then we’re going to get into some listener questions.

[01:52:58] Jonathan Lee: Somebody snuck that lie, that rapid fire one in, by the way. I think Sean probably put that in there. Somebody probably asked it in the live chat. I was not prepared. Okay. Favorite pre-workout meal or snack?

[01:53:09] Amber Pierce: Um, I like a variety, so I, but an easy one for me that I really like is just a plain toast with jam.

[01:53:20] Amber Pierce: I like.

[01:53:22] Ivy Audrain: A, like a cold bed you graph with like hummus, chippies, bunch of crunchy veggies,

[01:53:27] Jonathan Lee: like pre ride. Like, we’re not like, that’s not like horrible, like within like minutes before. How does your stomach handle that?

[01:53:37] Amber Pierce: I think I’m just like a garbage can.

[01:53:42] Jonathan Lee: So you can eat that like within 30 minutes before, and then your gut isn’t messed up. Yeah, I am so impressed. That’s impressive. I wish I had that sort of tolerance in, in my, my, my fussy little gut is like, if it’s not just pure sugar, then it doesn’t work. Yeah. Mine’s rice Krispie treats. That’s y’all wouldn’t believe what

[01:54:02] Ivy Audrain: I eat during your ride.

[01:54:03] Ivy Audrain: Then

[01:54:07] Amber Pierce: roll

[01:54:08] Ivy Audrain: Sunday road to Costco with my buddies and ate a bunch of goodies. Hot dogs.

[01:54:16] Jonathan Lee: Nice. Shout out to gas station food cyclist on that one. Yeah,

[01:54:20] Keegan Swenson: the dogs are, those are okay. Good rod.

[01:54:27] Keegan Swenson: I’m bringing some out five Pablo. So they have pre-read pancakes

[01:54:30] Jonathan Lee: for sure. Yeah.

[01:54:32] Keegan Swenson: Yeah. Or like rice pasta, something easy. This is assuming it’s like a reasonable training ride, but just recovery then I’ll eat whatever.

[01:54:40] Jonathan Lee: Pretty much. Yeah. Rice Krispie treat for me. It’s easy. Yeah. They’re good. Done tasty. No, I’m impressed.

[01:54:50] Jonathan Lee: IVs. Most people, if they were to eat something that’s fibrous like that. And that has, because vegetables tend to have a lot of fiber and like hummus too, and everything else like that, they ended up doing that. Then it slows digestion and it can cause like gut distress and cramps and all that stuff. So you’re just basically you have superpowers is what we’re getting at.

[01:55:08] Jonathan Lee: You have like hummus, veggie wrap superpowers. So, um, Alex says maybe actually Ivy, because you’ve raised short races these days. And that’s like, what you do, maybe you’re actually like that skill alone could make you like the 24 hour world champion being able to eat, like anything that you want and just keep on going.

How to gain confidence in the middle of a big field

[01:55:27] Jonathan Lee: Maybe you’re actually like the 24 hour time trial world champion Ivy. Oh my gosh. Next year. Just haven’t fulfilled it yet. Here you go. It’s your destiny. You just got to manifest it. Okay. Alex says these were out of rapid fire. He says any tips on gaining confidence while riding in the middle of the field, I tend to gradually lose position if I’m in the fat portion of the Peloton.

[01:55:48] Jonathan Lee: So he’s talking about the larger blob. If I’m towards the front, somewhere in the single file section, I’m fine. Until the pace slows anyhow in the field gets fat. Again, the slower the field is going, the more exaggerated this effect seems to be I’m an okay bike handler. I’ve been doing all my indoor training on rollers since 2015.

[01:56:06] Jonathan Lee: And when sketchy stuff happens, I E contact avoiding crashes, managing the guy on my right side. That forgot about a right-hand turn. Sounds like a very specific scenario that he’s dealt with, et cetera. He says in the field I’ve been fine. Nevertheless, I’m always either on the side of the Peloton near the front or tail gunning.

[01:56:24] Jonathan Lee: I know it’s costing me a fair bit of energy, both in less of a draft, as well as cognitive load. Amber, what do you have to advise on this one? Cause this is really common, particularly in fields you’re unfamiliar with or aggressive fields. Right?

[01:56:37] Amber Pierce: Okay. Yeah. So to your point about when the field fattens up, um, quick, you know, guideline to go by when you’re in a, in a Mo uh, sorry, in a mass start race when the field fattens up, that’s because the pace has slowed and when the pace slows the field, fattens up and it’s when the pace picks up that it takes on more of an arrow shape or has more of a line in the front when it gets lined out.

[01:56:59] Amber Pierce: And the pace has picked up. That’s a really bad time to try to move up and gain position. So when the field fattens up, that’s when you do want to gain position. But what you’re mentioning here is when the field fattens up, it’s especially hard to maintain your position if you’re in the middle of the field.

[01:57:11] Amber Pierce: And that makes sense, because this is when there’s a lot more crowding and there’s less space to move around. Think about this, like surfing the field, there’s going to be, they’re going to be pretty typical currents. If you will, of patterns of movement where the, uh, where writers are moving. So as you pointed out, it tends to be easier on the side of the field.

[01:57:33] Amber Pierce: Well, if that works well, in terms of drafting, if you’re on the Lee side of the field, and by that, I mean on the side of the field, that’s protected from the wind, but everyone wants to be there. And so what ends up happening is you have people moving up the sides of the field because that’s an easier place to move up and then they don’t want to be on the front.

[01:57:51] Amber Pierce: So then they kind of move in toward the middle as they get closer to the front of the field. And then. As the next wave of people moving up, the sides comes forward and moves into the middle. They push those people back and then the next wave comes and pushes those people back. So you kind of have this churn effect where on either side of the field, you have like a rotating current.

[01:58:11] Amber Pierce: And if you know this pattern, then if you move up the side and you move toward the middle and you feel yourself getting pushed back, move slowly, start to move out to the side again and try to move out to the side before you get pushed too far back in the middle. So that’s a really typical pattern. It doesn’t mean it’s going to happen in every race, but if you start to look at the movement in the field as a current, and you’ll see different, if you’re in a crit, you’ll be able to see this happening lap after lap.

[01:58:39] Amber Pierce: And you’ll see, okay, people tend to move up on the outside. On this corner. People tend move up on the inside of this corner, take notes, learn. And as you figure out where the currents are, you can start to predict that and move yourself in response so that you’re not getting pushed back. So being a little bit predictive of where people are moving, what the dynamic is and surfing those currents as much as you can.

[01:59:02] Amber Pierce: Um, It can be a little bit intimidating because you know, being packed in and not having a lot of space can start to feel a little overwhelming. If that’s something that frustrates you or, or is, um, concerning for you. Remember that your job is to protect your, your front bars and your front wheel. And that’s it.

[01:59:21] Amber Pierce: So as long as those are in a safe position and you’re responsible for you, you’re good. So keeping yourself safe will actually keep other people safe too. So that can bring down your cognitive load a little bit, just focus on where you’re putting your front wheel on your handlebars, as long as those are in a safe place, then you’re okay.

[01:59:36] Amber Pierce: And you don’t want to make any sudden movements, obviously. Um, and two more checks, I’ll say one is focused on the negative space. And what I mean by that is don’t stare at the writers stare at the space between them watch what’s happening in that negative space. Watch what’s happening in the space between the writers.

[01:59:51] Amber Pierce: Is there space opening? Is there a space closing? That’s what you want to be focused on, not on the writers and the bikes themselves.

[01:59:58] Jonathan Lee: That’s the number one tip in my opinion, that is such a good tip and a good way to phrase it too, because you’re worried about the riders. So you fixate on the writers and then as a result, you’re missing all this space and this opportunity for you to actually be much more comfortable, more efficient, Everything else.

[02:00:15] Jonathan Lee: It’s just, it’s hard to do because you’re just focused on the source of danger, which you perceive to be the writer, but really like if there’s a safe space, you’re just missing it the whole time. Oh, it’s such a good tip. Yeah. Good point, Amber.

[02:00:27] Amber Pierce: Yeah. And keeping in mind that there’s these currents that are happening and there’s constant movement within the field.

[02:00:32] Amber Pierce: If you get pushed back, don’t despair, don’t just throw up your hands and say, Ugh, I’m at the back of the field. I’ll never get to the front again, because just a couple of key moves might put you at the front again. It’s not like you have to move out to the side and motor up the side of the field just to get to the front.

[02:00:47] Amber Pierce: So a good way of managing that is to focus on moving your handlebars in front of two sets of handlebars at a time. So look around you identify that negative space. If you see a space open up that you can move safely, move your front wheel and handlebars ahead of somebody else’s front wheel on the handlebars.

[02:01:06] Amber Pierce: Do that, and then try to do it again and try to. Two at a time. So, okay. My goal right now is to move past two sets of handlebars. Just do that. And then once you’re there move past two more sets of handlebars. And what that’ll do is it’ll keep you from feeling overwhelmed by, oh, I just got shuffled all the way back to the pellet, you know, at the back of the Peloton, if you’re thinking that you are definitely gonna, you’re going to continue to lose position, um, and not gain any more position.

[02:01:31] Amber Pierce: But if you just focus on two at a time, two at a time, two at a time, focus on moving into space safely, moving into space safely. Um, that will keep, sorry. I keep hitting my microphone, sorry for just your magazine. Um, that will, that will keep your focus in a positive place. And you might find that you only have to move past three handlebars and suddenly you’ll find yourself at the front of the field again, because of how that current is moving.

[02:01:55] Amber Pierce: So if you feel yourself overwhelmed by the whole concept, break it down into something really, really simple that will keep your focus and keep you in a positive mental space.

[02:02:05] Jonathan Lee: Yeah. Oh yeah. Fantastic points. Uh, Ivy, you have an alternative way to do this.

[02:02:11] Ivy Audrain: Yeah. I mean, Amber just described perfectly how to move around in a field and, uh, yeah, absolutely nailed it.

[02:02:20] Ivy Audrain: But Alex Alex’s core question, how to gain confidence in the middle of the field? Uh, my answer is don’t don’t gain competence being in the middle of a field because nothing. Good. That will happen in the race. We’ll have him from the middle of the field. That’s not a place that you want to be. And I know that they’re addressing that.

[02:02:39] Ivy Audrain: There’s a cognitive load. There’s a tax to having to think about how you’re moving around all the time, but that doesn’t go away. Even at the highest level of the sport. There’s no time in the race where you just get to, like, unless there’s a break up the road and your GC riders up there and you just get to like chill out and whatever.

[02:02:57] Ivy Audrain: There’s no time in which you get to just be blissed out and just sit around and no think you have to always be thinking and moving. Um, so don’t get confident in the middle of the field. Don’t be there. You don’t want to be there. Nothing happens from

[02:03:11] Jonathan Lee: Keegan. Is there anything only, oh, sorry, go ahead. I was going to say

[02:03:15] Amber Pierce: the only benefit to being in the middle of the field is a, it’s a good process goal to learn how to get comfortable in case you get shuffled there on accident and B, if there is a genuine long stretch of a race where you don’t have to be on duty or paying attention to what’s happening in the race.

[02:03:31] Amber Pierce: So for example, there would be times when I would be on a team where my job would be to conserve energy. My upcoming difficult job is going to be several kilometers up the road. And I really want to take advantage of as much draft as possible. That’s where I might park it in the middle of the field and really try to conserve energy.

[02:03:49] Amber Pierce: Um, but I think Ivy’s point is a really, really good one for most people. This is not necessarily a place that you want to be. So you want to practice the skill because you want to feel confident in your ability to move around in a group, but apply this judiciously only fight for position when it really, really matters, because it does take energy.

[02:04:07] Amber Pierce: Even if you’re not peddling hard, it is taking cognitive load and that will stop you. And you want to make sure that you’re super, super sharp at the point in the race when it really matters to make a selection and get yourself into that position. So practice it as a skill. Um, but then remember when it’s really important, you want to be applying this very judiciously.

[02:04:27] Jonathan Lee: Mm Keegan. What, what have you learned, uh, going from like boy, like cross-country Olympic is totally different in from this gravel thing. Um, but you have plenty of experience riding in groups too. What would you say to in this case,

[02:04:41] Keegan Swenson: Alex, may I ever had all sorts of good points? I think the simplest thing that kind of helps me, that’s helped me navigate packs and groups and stuff is like, you’re not going forward and you’re going backwards.

[02:04:53] Keegan Swenson: And it’s like pretty simple. Like if there’s a hole in front of you, if you don’t fill it, someone else is going to fill it and you’re going to slowly get like shuffle back. So I think it’s just a constant. It’s like a constant, like Amber said, it’s a constant flow. And I think you’d just be looking for holes.

[02:05:05] Keegan Swenson: Like, as you had mentioned, like the negative space, so there’s a hole there. Put your wheel there and try and get your bars there before someone else does. Otherwise you’re going to get shuffled back and after a while, it just, it kind of becomes habit. Um, and then I was also fine. Like, you don’t have to always be in the middle, you can just chill at the back.

[02:05:22] Keegan Swenson: And then if you want into the front, wait for like a nice big turn and you can swing outside and carry speed and then float like a kinda like filter your way back in. So I think you don’t have to always be fighting for the fronts and it’s fine to be in the back. And if you want to fight for the front, it’s easier.

[02:05:37] Keegan Swenson: Once you get up there, it’s easier to hold position. You can just like, you know, bump people off for like 15 filling holes. And like eventually you’ll kind of learn it just like a learning experience. Really. I think group rides are a good place to practice that too.

[02:05:49] Jonathan Lee: I would love to, I would love to talk about this.

[02:05:52] Jonathan Lee: Three hours because we totally could theoretical scenarios. Yeah. We’re already over the two hour mark, but according to the survey, people don’t complain about it being long. Um, they like it being long because you can just digest it in chunks. So, um, but the one thing where this gets really tricky is when you have a course that is bending left or right left right left, right.

[02:06:13] Jonathan Lee: And going back and forth like a crit course where there is a favorable line and people are fighting for that line. And when I say a favorable line, I mean, like there’s manhole covers, there’s something else. And you can watch that race from Tulsa tough for a great example of this. We have it on our YouTube channel.

[02:06:28] Jonathan Lee: You can go and see I crash at the end of the race, but you’ll get to see a lot of chaos and you can even see the full race to see that I was absolutely like just going around the rim because the center was just so chaotic. Um, it wasn’t people like finding holes as much as it was problems happening and then like crazy ripple effect.

[02:06:47] Jonathan Lee: So if you were in the middle, you just constantly didn’t float to the back, you got thrown to the back or you crashed. That was like your choice. And then you’d have to like work your way back up. So, you know, you can try to find space, like Keegan said to try to like get yourself to move around. But honestly, the best thing for you, Alex, in this case is quit, quit focusing so much on being in the group and instead focus on what you want to accomplish.

[02:07:12] Jonathan Lee: And if you do that, you’ll find yourself in the right spot. Like if, if your goal with that race is to upset the race and to make it surgey and attack and try to draw people out and make them make bad decisions and attack when they shouldn’t. Then this is a situation where your position will be totally just a, an afterthought or a result of how you are fulfilling your goals in the race.

[02:07:34] Jonathan Lee: If your goal with the race is to sit in and sprint, then your position is going to be a result of that. Like, um, a lot of the time we get so focused on the basics that we forget about what we’re actually accomplishing in the race, and you’re a good bike rider, Alex, you said that you’ve got good bike handling skills.

[02:07:49] Jonathan Lee: You’ve got everything else. I’d say focusing on the negative spaces, one thing, actionable thing that can really help and like Keegan and Amber both said, you know, find those spots and move forward two at a time, something like that. But really if you just stay focused on your goal, your position’s going to work out.

[02:08:06] Jonathan Lee: And if you have the fitness to backup such a goal. So I know that sounds kind of weird, but I think that if we do shift our perspective, then it ends up being better. As soon as we start focusing too much on fighting for one position, staying static and a spot in the field, that’s when we make bad decisions, people will not want to ride behind you and they’ll fill in right in front of you and make it even tougher.

[02:08:25] Jonathan Lee: You won’t be riding fluidly. You won’t be making good decisions. So it’s dynamic. It’s gotta be. We, uh, I’m going to skip over this next question that we have and just go into Christina’s but I want to mention something base. Actually. I’m going to read this one. We’re going to, are you guys okay on time?

Does AI FTP Detection work without max efforts?

[02:08:42] Jonathan Lee: It’s okay if we do this. Sure. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Okay. Brock’s question.

[02:08:47] Amber Pierce: Enormous burrito, as soon as we’re done, but I’m getting,

[02:08:51] Jonathan Lee: yeah. Brock says AI FTP detection is dope and he says, dopamine, all caps, which is pretty sweet. Uh, for the past two weeks, my level seven plus sweet-spot workouts have started feeling moderate.

[02:09:03] Jonathan Lee: And I figured I’d have about a 15 water increase from my old FTP of T 64. And sure enough, it recommended 281 Watts adaptive training reset my levels and the level four sweet spot workout felt perfect. This whole thing is just so seamless. Now it’s better than any training I’ve had even with coaches.

[02:09:17] Jonathan Lee: Thank you, Amber and team. That is awesome. Brock. Thank you. That’s fantastic. Um, he says, I do have a question though. I’m still in the base phase, but doing a lot of sweet spot work, which is enough to, or which is close enough to threshold that it makes sense. The AI FTP detection could get a good idea of what my FTP is in the build phase.

[02:09:36] Jonathan Lee: However, I’m going to try one of the experimental polarized plans that you have and looking at the training, I’ll either be in the endurance zone or doing threshold or via two workouts. If my threshold levels aren’t high enough to be doing long threshold, repeat. We’ll adaptive training or AI FTP detection.

[02:09:53] Jonathan Lee: Forgive me still be able to get an accurate fix on my FTP from just VO two and endurance training. Uh, this one’s for Amber, Amber, take it away. Yes. You don’t need max efforts and they don’t have to be threshold efforts. Right?

[02:10:07] Amber Pierce: Right. So that’s, that’s actually one of the really cool things about this model.

[02:10:10] Amber Pierce: And this is what makes this model so much different than what we see on other platforms. So, um, most, most other methods of determining FTP from your data, we’ll look at a max effort or an effort that exceeded a previous FTP, and then it will use, uh, a static equation to calculate out what they think your FTP is based on that effort.

[02:10:32] Amber Pierce: Our model is very different. It doesn’t require capacitive efforts or max efforts. What we do is we actually look at your training holistically in order to determine what your FTP is. So because we’re using a lot more data, um, we can actually hone in on what your FTP is, even if you’re not doing threshold that I’ve heard is even if you’re not doing max or capacitive efforts.

[02:10:53] Amber Pierce: So that is one of the really cool differentiators about this model. And so far, it’s working really well. We’ve had a couple of edge cases, um, but you know, the more people that can sign up for this and start using it, the, the better it’s gonna be.

[02:11:04] Jonathan Lee: Yep. And you can even do this without even riding inside or doing tryna road workouts at all.

[02:11:09] Jonathan Lee: Really like, uh, if you just do your outside riding, it’s still going to be analyzing that outside riding as well, which is super cool. Exactly.

[02:11:16] Amber Pierce: So not just outside workouts, it actually will look at all of your unstructured writing as well. So you get credit for everything and that’s how, um, and so we’ll, we’ll look at all of that data to determine what your FTP like.

What to do if you’ve had big gains in the Base Phase

[02:11:31] Jonathan Lee: Pretty sweet. So you could just be doing like endurance stuff, tempo stuff, whatever else. And we’ll figure it out from there. It’s pretty awesome. Yep. Okay. Last question from Christina. She says, Hey trainer roadies, I guess that’s our name? I didn’t know. Okay. Train and roadies. That’s us. I like it. And she says, I’m so happy.

[02:11:48] Jonathan Lee: I found this podcast community. I’m a recovering triathlete. And she says, don’t go to the dark side, Jonathan, turn back. It’s not too late. Uh, she says, uh, who’s found a cyclocross and crit racing in the past three years. It is so much fun. And I wish I would have found it years ago. I’m writing to ask what feels like an ungrateful question.

[02:12:07] Jonathan Lee: I just finished the base phases of train road and I saw 14% power to weight ratio improvement, way to go. It’s my first year training with trainer road in any real structure at all. I guess in my life has been really hard. I’m blown away at how much I’ve improved over 12 weeks, but this is where I start to feel ungrateful.

[02:12:24] Jonathan Lee: I’m worried about this improvement. I feel like it’s too much too soon and that now I won’t get faster in the builds days. That seems problematic to me since the name and even the description of. Phase makes me feel like that being the build phase is where I should see most of my improvement have I?

[02:12:40] Jonathan Lee: And she says in quotes gone out too hard in a sense, I use it after training. So other than the first workout or two, I never rated a sweet spot workout harder than quotes, hard or moderate. So I feel like I didn’t bite off more than I can chew in the training. I guess I’m just worried. I’ll plateau and risk over after such a strong base phase.

[02:12:57] Jonathan Lee: Am I wrong? Can you call my overly analytical brain please? It’s a great question. Uh, this is actually pretty common, right? Uh, we see this with a lot of athletes. So think about coming into the base phase and Keegan, you even see this, like you see a lot of improvement in the base phase every year from the beginning of vase to the end, right?

[02:13:14] Jonathan Lee: That’s normal for you. So because you’re coming off of usually time off. So you’ve had to D train, uh, you’ve had time to D train and become less fit. And then, or you are getting into training for the beginning and you have a lot of room to grow and a ton of potential, and you’re going to see really fast gains.

[02:13:33] Jonathan Lee: So it is really common to see improvement in the base phase, the, the goal of the base phase isn’t to raise FTP it’s to make you a robotically fit. And that then as a result of that, your FTB does go up. That is very common, especially if you’ve experienced D training or a lack of training before that. So that’s, that’s pretty common there.

[02:13:55] Jonathan Lee: However, I kind of want to talk about like setting expectations for this, because there is a lot of fear. We get people saying like, well now I’m, am I going to get anything in the base phase? Or even people that say I got all my improvement of the base phase, and now I didn’t get anything in the build phase.

[02:14:07] Jonathan Lee: Uh, so did the build phase not work? And I want to talk about that assumption right there is that if indeed you don’t see as much improvement later on as he did in the base phase, did those phases not work? What would you say to that, Amber? Um,

[02:14:22] Amber Pierce: it’s all money in the bank is really what it comes down to.

[02:14:25] Amber Pierce: And one thing that they mentioned is, um, they’re new to structured training. And so that’s already off the bat. You’re going to see huge early gains just by getting into structured training, coming from unstructured training. So that is not surprising at all. Um, and I wouldn’t worry. Just go find out. I mean, this is, this is the beauty of training.

[02:14:48] Amber Pierce: It’s a giant, never ending self experiment. You get to learn about yourself. Um, year over year, it’s going to change year to year. Everybody’s different too. So some people are going to respond differently to different types of training. That’s something else that you get to learn about yourself and who knows, maybe you’ll feel even bigger gains in the build phase.

[02:15:06] Amber Pierce: I mean, you have so much to discover here. I don’t see any reason to be afraid of that. Just go see what you can see. You’ve already, you’ve already had this huge improvement. I mean, there’s nothing to lose here. Just go see if you can make more gains.

[02:15:21] Jonathan Lee: Yes. IVD. Do you see a lot of athletes? I’m sure. Talk about this on the forum, whether it’s musing about the possibility or actually experiencing it, what, what would, what advice would you have?

[02:15:31] Jonathan Lee: Uh,

[02:15:32] Amber Pierce: don’t stress ride this high? Um,

[02:15:35] Jonathan Lee: yeah, you know,

[02:15:39] Ivy Audrain: Watts per kilogram to, especially since this is their first, you know, structured training, it’s a base phase probably coming off of an off season. There’s a good chance that they maybe have lost some weight during this base phase. And that could be, you know, where you see such a big improvement in Watts per kilogram, and that’s going to slow it down and it’s okay.

[02:16:03] Ivy Audrain: Um, yeah, just ride this high it’s all right. The reason the, the plans are there for a reason, uh, to progress you and move you in a way that makes sense for your goals and that those jumps and improvement won’t always make sense to us as athletes, but it’s part of the plan

[02:16:18] Amber Pierce: stress process.

[02:16:20] Jonathan Lee: The FTP is just one way to measure improvement.

[02:16:24] Jonathan Lee: And then with trainer road, we have progression levels. Then you can see your abilities improve and other more relevant ways to whatever your goals are. Right. But like Keegan, like there’s, there’s more to it, right? Like in the build phase and the specialty phase, you’re building other skills than just raising up.

[02:16:40] Keegan Swenson: Well, and you FTP also, I just, cause they’ll say you test that FTP of 300 Watts doesn’t mean that you can actually go do 300 Watts for an hour. And maybe during the build phase, you can actually like, your FTP might not increase, but you might have a more usable FTP. Like, oh, now I can actually do 300 Watts for an hour or whatever it may be, which is a lot more useful than having FTP of three 20, but not actually being able to do that.

[02:17:06] Keegan Swenson: So I think just because you don’t see an FTP increase doesn’t mean you’re not going to get faster. Like maybe you can now maybe you can now do like three 20 minute intervals at FTP instead of only being able to do one or two. So you’re going to see improvements, but they might not be like direct improvements on your Watts for Keela or your actual FTP, but you’re faster.

[02:17:24] Keegan Swenson: And you can do that FTP longer or there’s so much more that goes into it than just

[02:17:29] Jonathan Lee: numbers. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s the sort of thing that shows up in progression levels too, right? Like when you can now be three by 20, instead of one by 20, you’re going to be go up from like a level four threshold up to like a level seven.

[02:17:42] Jonathan Lee: By that time, you know, you’ll have worked your way up. That’s like, uh, it’s, it’s a really tough thing for, for us to wrap our minds around that if our FTP isn’t improving, that we aren’t improving, but that’s totally not the case. There are so many that your repeatability increases your ability to be able to, like you said, time and time to exhaust and whatever effort you’re putting out will extend so many different things.

[02:18:02] Jonathan Lee: So, um, so Christina, you may not see a big bump in what kg in FTP, anything else, but like Amber said, it’s all money in the bank. If you’re following a well properly structured plan, which you’re falling, adapt to training. So of course it is. And in that case, you’re just going to be getting faster and faster.

[02:18:20] Jonathan Lee: Remember the goal, isn’t an FTP race. If that was the goal and don’t get me wrong, everything is better on a bike with a higher FTP. Other than eating, you probably burn. If you’re like Filippo, Ghana, I don’t know how he does it. I don’t know how he keeps up with his burn rate with like a 500 and whatever, what threshold he has.

[02:18:36] Jonathan Lee: Um, but everything is better with IRA FTP, right? Like, wouldn’t it be great to make it so that when somebody rides at 400 Watts, it’s like, yeah, okay, well, that’s still sweet spot for me. That’s not too bad. But that said. It’s not everything. And if it was just an FTP contest, they’d show up at the line, they’d show their numbers and then it’d be done.

[02:18:55] Jonathan Lee: There’s so much more to racing and there’s so much more to riding and doing, taking on big, like what a solo goal, whatever you have, if it’s not a race or just accomplishing something, there’s way more to riding bikes than just having a high FTP. And that’s what training is about. It’s just preparing you to be a good bike rider, not just be a big number.

[02:19:13] Jonathan Lee: So, uh, yeah. Follow the training. If you’re going to get faster. That’s the whole goal, Christina. It’s exciting stuff. Uh, y’all eat. We went long on this 1, 2 20. Thank you so much for joining us, everybody. Uh, I appreciate having you Keegan. Thanks for coming on. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, where can people get in touch with you?

[02:19:33] Jonathan Lee: Uh,

[02:19:33] Keegan Swenson: Instagram best place, uh, just Kegal cyanide and I try and get back to most people. I’m sorry if I don’t get back to you right away. So I’m much, I’m bad with things technology,

[02:19:46] Jonathan Lee: but I try my best and, uh, the can, if you’re at 24 hours in the old Pueblo and go cheer him on there, he’s going to need it spinning laps.

[02:19:56] Jonathan Lee: That’s right. Absolutely. And, um, with that, everybody we’ll talk to you next week, share this podcast with your friends, like rate, share the whole thing on the app on this podcast. And we will talk to you soon. Thanks everybody, everybody.

This transcript is produced by an automated service. It may contain grammatical errors and incorrect transcriptions of the original conversation.