Here I was about to say that I think a dumb trainer and a left only PM is better than a smart trainer.
But I am a multithousandaire only.
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It really is amazing how many people think they can hold an EXACT number for 30 minutes and are shocked to find out it varies from second to second. I put that on Wahoo 100%.
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Indeed. I get it to a point. We learn from our exposure, and due to the large market share Wahoo owns, they set the âstandard experienceâ for MANY people. Thatâs what bothers me so much about it, since that picture they offer is so far removed from reality.
Admittedly, Wahoo is not alone on the smoothing front. The Tacx Vortex and some Elite trainers have all offered very unrealistic smoothing in all their modes. And from what I saw, they arenât even possible to âcorrectâ like the Wahoo is. Wahoo is not the only offender in that sense, but they sure own the problem AFAIC because of their prolific place in peopleâs homes.
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Agree, underdamped is a bit unnatural. Iâve got a 2017 Kickr direct-drive and overall it has good road feel and responsiveness.
Erg and TR PowerMatch appear to have a little bit of ringing when transitioning to a work interval:
although the amount of ringing depends on the rider.
Standard/level mode is really nice if you want to emulate doing intervals outside on flat terrain, without loading up Zwift/RGT and putting the Kickr into Sim mode.
Trying to total up âworthâ is always fun/funny/interesting. Its the same as Carbon vs Ally (Wheels), Carbon vs ally frames. To me, personally, the âbenefitsâ of the above and the trainer argument make ZERO financial sense to me.
I always equate it to speed. Carbon wheels and trainers weâre looking at maybe 3-5x more expensiveâŚwill that make me 3-5x faster? Nope. 
Iâm on a TACX Vortex, prior to that I was on a Flow. It enables me to train hard and consistently. If I paid 5x what I paid for that for a high end TACX, would I really be significantly faster than I am now?
But, on the other hand, buy what you want and can afford of course. If I had ÂŁ1000 to just throw willy nilly at a TACX Neo then of course I would! 
Wahoo is using an optical sensor to estimate power (only exception is the original model). My understanding is that the sensor is looking at some patterns on the flywheel. That sensor data is then fed into an algorithm, to estimate power. Erg Mode Power Smoothing makes you look like a robot. Turning that off you will see power that looks similar to your pedal PM.
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Thatâs how I use my Kickr, set it to Standard mode with Level = 2 and simply train like outside on flat/windless roads. Power recorded off my crank, just like outside. âBlue barsâ on my bike computer.
After trying RGT and Zwift, have to say I like sim mode even better as its even more like riding outside (w/o wind). âBlue barsâ on my bike computer. But not enough to pay for a service unless I lived somewhere that required a lot of trainer workouts.
And to your earlier point, I have a lot of drift on my Kickr 2017 (v2? or v3?). Avoided the drama of TR threshold and overly precise over/unders by using my crank PM. TR PowerMatch worked well for me when I used it.
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I totally would have sprung for the Neo but it would have been a two week wait. Iâve never ridden on zwiftâŚbut I bet the Neo makes it a lot cooler to ride on zwift.
Thatâs true for most people! Most are unable to value any product or service except by the reaction of other people. I always think about Joshâs story about how nobody wanted ceramic hub bearingsâŚuntil they put a sticker on the hub that said, âceramic insideâ. That way when you bought the hub the PEOPLE YOU RIDE WITH could see you had them. Then, ceramic hub bearings became a hot item.
So that is a real thing. Maybe the primary real thing. ;-D Thatâs why people will pay $500 for oversized pulley wheels but not even $40 for a latex tube. Nobody can see the tube.
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I should have explained myself a bit better: Iâm using power match and you can use the slider to determine how quickly your trainer should clamp down or let go.
Regarding damping, AFAIK you neither want over- or underdamped, you want critically damped, i. e. the transition point between the two. Perhaps you want to err a bit on the overdamped side to avoid oscillations, yes.
We should not forget that the rider also has a role to play here. We arenât robots and we are not very good at holding power steadily. Erg mode works best for me when I try to keep my cadence steady, which leads to spikes in power initially. Thatâs why I really dislike using erg mode close to my threshold, taken in aggregate these power spikes then really take a bite out of my stamina.
I agree to a point but you could say the same about loads of bike related stuff with diminishing returns. Why ride 12, or 11 speed when youâd be essentially no slower with 10 speed, or even 9. Similarly groupset hierarchy - would you be significantly slower with Sora instead of Ultegra or Dura Ace?
Probably not, but getting faster isnât the only thing for a lot of people. Sometimes itâs just enjoyable to ride a nice bike, and similarly sometimes itâs just a nice experience to ride a nice trainer.
I had a Tacx Flow as well, i was getting useful workouts in, but it was frustrating trying to get it to function consistently and it wasnât very enjoyable to ride. I reckon there is a point of diminishing returns somewhere around to $700 mark but itâs not about getting faster, itâs about user experience.
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Iâve just ended a free 3 months on Zwift, with a Neo 2. Itâs kinda fun if youâre into that sort of thing.
You should try a Neo at some stage. Iâd buy another one in a heartbeat if mine stopped working.
Worth double? Who knows.
Start WO in erg and go. Job done.
This all depends on how deep your pockets are, like I said, if I had a grand just sitting about Iâd buy a Neo, but alas I donât. But then I am still getting quality workouts.
My MTB is 10 speed. My Roadie is a Btwin 3x8 speed with shit components but I love it! No upgrades will make me go ÂŁÂŁÂŁ faster 
My Flow was absolutely fine. Had no issues with, only changed as a Vortex came up in sale for ÂŁ200 and I sold the Flow for ÂŁ100. Again, the Vortex has been issue free
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Yeah, for sure the Neo is ace. To be fair i had 4 fun years with a Kickr Snap.
Like a lot of things they are worth what you are prepared to pay for it. Some people think itâs silly to spend hundreds of ÂŁ or $ extra for often small differences in product performance or quality. It depends on the relative cost to you. If i had to make the choice of buying shoes for my kids or a new bike part then it would be a different choice. But at my age a grand is not a lot of money compared to how long it took me to earn it 20 years ago.
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If youâre referring to the âroad feelâ thatâs neat for a ride or two, but most people end up turning it off. Also, if youâre into racing, itâs very disappointing to ride on an expensive and much more accurate trainer. I love my Neo, but itâs a disadvantage when it comes to Zwift.
LOL - i had a friend who had a cheap trainer and raced with us at the top of the B group in Zwift. He then upgraded to a more accurate trainer and suddenly lost about 45W 
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You chose wisely. Based on my own experiences and those of a large number of my friends/Zwift racing teammates, the Kickr is the only trainer worth buying if you care about power accuracy. Itâs pretty much always right on, and if itâs not a factory spindown fixes it. Iâm almost certain no other trainer on the market is doing this consistently well.
If you donât care about power accuracy (using your own PM, not racing Zwiftâif this describes you I have a Neo 2T to sell cheap) I guess it doesnât really matter. But my experience with Tacx support and the good stories Iâve heard about Wahoo support swing the equation toward the Kickr as well.
Everyone has their own metricâŚ.speed, IMO, is a poor one. If you apply the same metric to a bike, components or anything else, weâd all be riding steel bikes with a 6 spd free hub.
If someone finds value in the product, then great. If they enjoy using it more than a less expensive option, fantastic. If it causes them to use the product more, wonderful. If it doesnât cause them to get any faster than they would have with another product, who cares?
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Youâre obviously someone with deeper pockets than I I did say that if I could afford it, then Iâd get more expensive stuff.
As someone with much shallower pockets, youâre right, my metrics are poor But these are the metrics I have to work with, one has to look at the tangible benefits when budgeting. The OP is: Is a high end trainer twice as good? And the answer isâŚnot in my book.
Its the same with wheels; what does an additional grand get me in terms of performance? Certainly not a grands worth! But then, thatâs also down to personal value. Someone that has 100k does not look at 1k the same as the likes of me.
Unfair to call my metric poor.
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Why do you make that assumption? I said nothing about what I ride or whyâŚ.just pointed out that everyone has different metrics and it is personal.
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