I’m in this camp. In fact i really like PL.
And this.
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This +1
Part of the problem that you (TR) have is the very term “Progression” Levels. People see that word and assume that the values should always rise. Something like “Relative Workout Level” or “Functional Workout Level” would have been better since the values really relate to how your recent efforts match up to how hard individual workout levels are.
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Honestly - I’ve not read this entire thread but things have got MUCH more complicated with the intro of PL’s, AT etc etc and adding even more numbers, levels etc is just making things worse IMHO. Just look at the number of forum threads about PLs and AT changing them etc. Its a ridiculous number and only going to get worse if/when outdoor rides ever get considered…
I’ve already stopped even thinking about PLs and don’t use them or plan with them. More levels is just more layers of complexity for no benefit IMHO. You already hear people talking about scheduling workouts just to make their PLs move rather than thinking about what their goal is and what workouts will help them meet their goals. I’ve seen people using PLs to describe measures of their fitness rather than talking about how much power they produce over different periods of time, as if a PL of 6 means something to somebody? Sorry, its all got a bit ridiculous IMHO.
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That’s people missing the point though - it’s just there to help you pick workouts and alternates to scheduled workouts that are sensible relative to your current ability (and for AT to put workouts in a sensible progression).
I find it really useful for that…
I’m not sure what I would practically do with absolute levels. Isn’t it just another willy waving metric? How does it actually help me pick workouts?
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Totally agree. Think and confusion/issues with existing PL is due to lack of education/knowledge/awareness rather than a problem with the PLs
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For me there’s nothing complicated about AT and PL’s, love it!
I’m a big fat YES to your ‘idea’s’!
Maybe an ON/OFF switch for those that don’t want extra data.
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I’m pretty engaged in all things TR and this idea to myself only adds to confusion and complexity. I can’t imagine how it would help the casual TR user. PLs are great once you understand them and helps choose and compare workouts within a training zone. However, they aren’t helpful understanding your own fitness over months, training blocks and certainly year over year.
TR has termed them Progression Levels, meaning your progression/fitness in that zone. So how is it that my progress/fitness is somehow lower because my FTP is higher? Your fitness is not lower, but it makes no sense in that concept or on the surface. Certainly not obvious to the causal TR user. However, your PLs must go down to level out your FTP increase or workouts would be too difficult.
I’m not sure of the fix but its certainly an issue. Here’s a thought. What about a “shadow” behind your current FTP and PLs that shows your previous PLs at your previous FTP? The “shadow PLs” would remain constant as you complete workouts until your next FTP test were it would be updated. This way, I can see my progression/fitness increase versus my previous FTP and PLs. Also, I could hover over or click on my “shadow PLs” and it would give me some details (my previous FTP and previous PL). So for example my shadow at a FTP of 250 and PL of 7.0 would be the same as my current PL with a FTP at 260 and PL 4.5. Then I could clearly see my progression/fitness increasing versus my “shadow”.
Not sure if I’m explaining this correctly but it would look something like below as do workouts at my higher FTP. Not a perfect picture to show my concept but its the best I could find with a quick google image search.
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I would love to able to tell at a glance if I’m getting ‘fitter’ (whatever that means).
But isn’t all of this based off power?
I have the same Tacx Neo today as when I started riding indoors, but I also have Assioma Duo’s on the road bike and NGeco on the XC bike. I also have old single sided power data from an unreliable first forey into power meters which is skewing all my power PR’s. All thses data sources are different to some degree.
Sorting indoor versus outdoor or this power meter versus that power meter is ruining my ability to see where I’m at with the power curve chart.
Surly this new metric would be just as unreliable if it uses the same unreliable data?
Great idea, I hope I’m over thinking it!
Thats the entire point …Yet ANOTHER set of metrics, that are unique to TR, misunderstood by many (most?) and used in a way they weren’t intended and that create much confusion and questions.
Exactly why I think they’re a bit of a waste of time and further complicating them is even worse. Creating performance metrics unique to one service is a great marketing tools to lock people in (how can I move to another platform that doesn’t show PLs 
) but is simply like creating yet another layer of confusion with a different standard.
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I am ok with the PLs as they are. I understand how they can ratchet down when my FTP changes. I find it motivating to see them climb back up as I progress through my workouts. As a over 60 rider, I am fighting the natural decline in my fitness as I age. I would find the absolute scaling of workouts demotivating if they go down over the long run. Whereas I can continue to progress my PLs even if in the long term my FTP is in decline.
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I love this idea! More metrics = more insight, that’s always better for me. And the way progression levels reset after a ramp test feels a bit arbitrary to me, so I think this would highlight the logic and continuity behind that.
I wholehartedely second what was said about levelling up your own “character”. I spent way too many hours playing RPGs when I was young, and actually already view cycling through that lens. Only instead of spending days grinding for that armor you know won’t mean a damn thing to you in a few years, you spend days grinding for that progression level you know will mean better health for years to come (and maybe help you crush some souls à la Keegan 
)
Please make absolute levels happen Nate 
Well I wouldn’t go that far. I find genuine value in the PLs with regards picking workouts and alternates within the TR ecosystem. It also facilitates AT’s workout selection (I really like AT and have had great results), and how TrainNow picks workouts (which i don’t personally use much but I gather is very popular).
Anyone who’s thought about it for more than a few seconds can see there’s no value in comparing PLs between riders in their current form - although I guess some people may want to do that…
I remain to be shown/convinced by what additional value absolute PLs would bring, since as you say it’s an extra layer of complexity and I can’t currently see what it adds. Not that I really care if they do implement it, I just don’t see how you could use it in practice. I guess comparing season on season performance? But I already have power curves foe that and don’t really see why this helps.
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ALTERNATIVELY (and to really go nuts with the gaming analogy): Keep the relative levels and treat FTP changes like a prestige mechanic. That could pair well with the FTP prediction system (e.g. some sort of “you’re N workouts from a new FTP!” progress bar), or even a calendar countdown.
I really like the relative sliders, mostly because it helps me visualize what I’ve been doing recently and what other people have been doing recently, without giving me an automatic (and probably depressing, heh) comparison of our absolute watts.
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I’m not so sure that this is a helpful change. After just a couple weeks of using AT, I stopped paying attention to how PLs changed at all. I love that PLs allow a more ‘objective’ way to judge a workout and I use it all the time when looking at tomorrow’s workout to get a sense of how hard they will be or to self select a workout on occasion, but I worry about people keeping track of their PLs too closely. I know a lot of work went into the branding of Progression Levels, but I’ve wondered if Challenge Level would actually be a more appropriate name. To me calling them CLs makes the whole FTP thing moot because obviously if your FTP goes up, some workouts are going to become too Challenging, so of course dropping the CLs will be appropriate.
I think if you really want to show people that they are improving, there are other ways to do it. I’m probably what I think you guys call internally a ‘data scientist’ or whatever it was, so I have lots of metrics that I pay attention to so that I know I’m getting stronger. One which I’ve started doing lately is looking at matching workouts from last year and seeing that I’m X watts higher for the same PL/RPE. That’s super motivating! For the regular user who doesn’t pay attention to these things, I think you are always going to have some trouble with people misinterpreting or misusing the metric (I mean, just look at FTP…), but I like the idea of somehow showing that the rider is X% stronger than last month, Y% stronger than 6months ago, and Z% stronger than 1 year ago… or something. Or similar to other people’s suggestions, you could have a shadow bar or stacked bar for each energy system that shows your old ‘adjusted PL’ which is just a bar scaled to new FTP.
Just some thoughts. At the end of the day, you guys have designed some very compelling software that I love using every day, so you probably know better than me!
The term “progression level” is maybe misleading, but the concept of using a metric to indicate the difficulty of a workout relative to FTP is well established and understood in the world of cycling.
TSS and IF are both relative metrics cyclists have been using for years.
Adding another “absolute progression level” just introduces more confusion from another proprietary TR metric.
For people who want to see their fitness progression on an absolute basis, use the Power Duration Curve.
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Totally
I know they are marketable by TR so they are going to make a big deal about them, I think that making such a big deal about them overly influences what workout you are going to do next, sort of “I’m a bit tired, I’ll do a easy workout, sweet spot maybe …achievable, but that won’t increase my progression levels, I better pick a harder one”
I think they are great, and make the next productive workout easier, but think (like I said earlier) maybe hide them from the user a bit more, why are they splattered on my career page so much, making a big deal of them, makes them a big deal, when in reality all the user needs to know is how far off my current progression is this workout (maybe not even show them for achievable workouts)
It’s more like you’ve increased your 1RM, thus your sets at 90% have increased so now you “reset” your rep progression from the 4x6 you were doing to 3x5 with the new weight.
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Currently, TR displays Duration, TSS, and IF as its 3 “summary” stats.
Duration = self explanatory
TSS = total stress, OK, a little less intuitive
IF = NP/FTP, but this is the least intuitive. This number feels like the right educational target for this thread since your FTP goes up but it tends to stay the same.
It feels like this thread is asking, “Should we be displaying forecasted NP (or something similar) as a number to users?” The caveat here- not all Threshold workouts (Kennedy vs Lone Pine -2) have the same IF, durations change, etc. It’s hard to summarize meaningfully in a single number, which is surely why the design decision to display Duration / TSS / IF was made.
Instead of adding another number, what about pushing some more education/branding about what TSS and IF mean so that users can get more value out of the numbers that are already displayed?
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Late to the party - this might have already been mentioned above, but THIS I like!
Do you currently have screen recordings of solutions for some FAQ’s, e.g. “how do I enable AI FTP”? I’m visualising a screen recording of the toggle feature you mention in action + an explanatory voice over of the feature and what each mean working really well.
That’s one way to look at things. My opinion is different: give me more metrics, whatever helps me quantify progression and increase motivation is welcome.
About education: if one is going to spend hunderds of hours per year on the bike, surely one can find 5 minutes to google TSS if he cares about it?
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