Already taking creatine may cut it out at some points during the race seasons to lose a few pounds.
Used to take Glutamine in the past it helped me anecdotally with muscle damage recovery, may look into trying that again but as suggested throughout this thread cut back on the weight and try to get a 2nd session per week in.
That second session might be something like kettle bell swings, weighted lunges, ab wheel rollouts, maybe some stair walking with a weighted vest.
Kettlebells arenât that great for building overall strength but thatâs my opinion. Also doing weighted stairs you end up training your aerobic system just like cycling.
My hot take: if you want to strength train for strength, stay in the gym lifting. Working on movements with a full range of motion and increase weight progressively.
We already cycle for hours a week and doing weight stairs or steps is a waste of time. Just my opinion and hot take.
I normally do 1 heavy day a week all year, sometimes 2x a week depending the time of year. If Iâm doing events my second session is either mobilty, core or lighter weights higher reps.
Hi BCM,
I appreciate the articles and the response.
Regarding the first study, this is one that Andrew Coggan provided during a very lengthy discussion I had with him. I had commented that while today we know that VO2 max is not the end all be all for performance, it wasnât that long ago that it was considered the primary characteristic for endurance performance, and I pointed out that this didnât make sense to me since I had a very high, essentially untrained VO2 max in my 20s, but had no pedaling power and couldnât push much of a gear. He provided that study (since it is his study) showing that lactate threshold in relation to VO2 max is more important. I donât disagree with this assessment. That said, the study muses about capillarization as being important, as well as potential benefits of muscle mass. The section on muscle mass poses it as more of a question, musing about whether it is important in spreading work over a larger area thus reducing localized stress, and gives pro and con about it, leaving it open-ended. In any case, finding that X is more important than Y doesnât mean that unknown variables A or B or C arenât also important. It just means that X is more important than Y. It also doesnât explain how one can train X and there could be a variety of ways to do this. Indeed, it refers to intense training but never defines what that means.
Regarding KM, I appreciate his podcasts and information. Really enjoy listening to most of what he discusses. However, he recently had a strength coach on who advocated the clean-and-jerk for cyclists and also thinks explosive type training is beneficial for pedaling power. C-and-J is great if you are focused on general fitness, changing up your routine, but itâs worthless for improving pedaling power. Same with explosive power (though it might be beneficial for running). I can certainly agree with someone who says strength training doesnât improve cycling performance if weâre talking about what this coach was advocating! So this leads to the question I always ask: what are we talking about when we say strength training? Whatâs the exercise selection? Whatâs the structure of the workout after selection?
My N=1 is that strength training, starting from a neuromuscular emphasis and gradually moving through a glycolytic emphasis, using appropriate exercises, is very beneficial for improving pedaling power. Even if I agree with your statement that âmuscle strength is not a limiter for most peopleâs FTPâ, 1) I again ask what do you mean by strength and 2) I reply that it was unbelievably beneficial for me when I was 24, beyond anything I could have imagined, so I am not most people. If you look at the Coggan study it focuses on having a lactate threshold that is high percentage of VO2 max. Glycolytic strength work will improve your muscleâs ability to do work in a glycolytic state and to buffer H+ and use lactate as the energy source in doing this work. As long as you are also riding (i.e. not replacing riding with the gym, rather, supplementing it), why wouldnât these physiological benefits matter?
I donât remember this episode at all! 
#181 and 182.
You havenât posted or referred to a single thing yet that supports that Strength Training improves FTP. If you have evidence or references, please just post them and lay off the long monologues or general references to Strength and Hypertrophy training that really just confuse the issue. Actual citations are going to be needed on your part. And âPedaling Powerâ is way, way too generic of a term without defining it and the durations of that power.
Strength training absolutely can improve short power: Anaerobic and Sprint, I am not disputing that. But thatâs not FTP. (Not including outside cases of injury, muscle imbalance, or extremely weak people right off the couch where pretty much anything makes a differenceâŚ)
My priority is my FTP but also feel like I need some strength training to prevent issues like my current knee instability from what I expect is a weak glue medius. Also while Iâm probably best at road, I also race XCO, CX and gravel so need a little bit of total body strength to throw the bike around.
Feel like I need a strong posterior chain and to work the muscles that arenât getting engaged through cycling in my legs to prevent injury and muscle imbalances.
I have to be very clear, I am NOT against strength training. I think there are a TON of benefits, and itâs part of my routine too. I keep upper body and core up almost year round, and Iâm getting ready to start very slowly working in lower body after time off due to a VO2 block and then Covid earlier in the year. I do it for general health, fitness, and for all of my other pursuits in life. I do it because muscle mass matters as you get older. I do it for injury prevention and to prevent muscle imbalances, and a host of other reasons. It really is one of the best things you can do for all around health and longevity.
Itâs just that if your primary goal is to raise FTP and on bike aerobic fitness, strength training isnât the way to do it, and it can hurt if itâs at all impacting your bike workouts or taking time away from bike workouts. Itâs one of those compromises where only you individually can say what makes sense for you.
More comments from Coggan. Hereâs one:
Or this one:
Or this one: " Resistance training diminishes mitochondrial adaptations to subsequent endurance training in healthy untrained men"
https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP284822
More:
No worries, itâs all good. These should suffice though they donât use âFTPâ as a measurement.
Are you confusing Kolie Moore with Adam Pulford?
Yes! Ugh, sorry about that.
Here is another one showing gains in OBLA. I donât actually like this protocol because it used only 50% of 1 RM for weight, which is awfully low. Not a fan of % of 1 RM to begin with, and using such a low % is very surprising to me. If I were forced to use % of 1 RM Iâd use a weight closer to 80%.
Just went through them, thanks for these. Now that Iâm coffeeâd up, hereâs my take:
The first one agrees with one of the exceptions thatâs been mentioned - all subjects were untrained, so not all that surprising. Iâve heard this referenced, havenât read a study showing it. Would have been interesting to me to put one group on a strength training program, and then one on a cycling program and compare the results across both strength and cycling metrics.
The second one is more interesting because people werenât untrained, but there are some interesting nuggets. They were shooting for 15 reps, which is on the higher end for âstrengthâ work. They did see the increase in âOnset of Blood Lactateâ, but there was no statistically significant increase in VO2 Max, Max Power, TTE, or even OBLA as a % of VO2 Max if Iâm reading it right (Not sure Iâm understanding that last one, and Max Power especially does look like there was an impact if not significant).
But, TTE is specifically the interesting one that would equate most to FTP and w/Kg. So itâs basically saying that there was an indicator improvement (OBLA), but no cycling specific performance improvement (TTE).
I donât think this contradicts anything thatâs been put out there before. Thereâs a lot of evidence to show that strength training is one of the best things you can do for overall health, wellness, longevity, and performance in other areas, but itâs not the way to a higher FTP and can actually detract because of opportunity cost.
And, from my end, Iâm riding and lifting todayâŚ
Youâll eventually get through the DOMS, just accept that youâll have it after each strength session for 1-2 months and reduce your intensity on the bike, no big deal. I donât understand why itâs such a problem to have DOMS after starting a strength routine, I mean you felt like crap after your first few interval sessions on the bike right? Why wouldnât you expect that when you start lifting?
The worst thing you can do is lift for 1-2 sessions, get DOMS, then (like most cyclists) think that strength training isnât for you and never touch weights again.
Youâre getting DOMS every time because you are not lifting frequently enough. Go to the gym at least twice a week.
See trainerroad podcast 437 for more details.
Specifically check 11:50 minute mark and 29:20 minute mark.
The main thing I was asking was âshould I reduce weight or volume (reps/sets)â to still optimize strength gains without getting so much muscle damage/DOMs pain that it interfered with most of the weekâs workouts. This past weekendâs was the worst but I have progressed the weight as Iâve been going so I think I just hit a point where the weight was too high (if my focus was just strength training I left some in the tank and could have gone higher) to have it not interfere with my cycling. I just wasnât clear on whether I should maintain the weight and drop the reps or drop the weight and maintain the reps.
Depending on your goals, you need to progressively overload your resistance training to get stronger. If youâre new to resistance training (<2 years consistent training), or if youâre coming back from not lifting for the last 2 years, youâre going to have DOMS no matter what, probably for the first month or two after start of training. What I meant in my post is that cyclists get DOMS, then think they will always get DOMS every time and just give up on lifting.
Agreed, you need to adjust your volume and intensity until your muscles can adapt. I have no idea who you are or what youâve been doing, so YMMV and do at your own risk, but letâs assume youâre a typical cyclist that has predominantly slow-twitch muscles. If I were you and a relatively new lifter, Iâd stick to the standard compound lifts like squat, deadlift, benchpress, and over-head press. Smith machines and hack squats work too, probably stay away from isolation exercises like curl machines.
Two workout sessions per week.
Warmups: 1x12, 1x,10, 1x8
Work sets: 3x7-10 reps (3RIR)
Progression: add 5 lbs to upper body lifts and 10lbs to lower body every week, try to do the same number of reps you did last week. Deload every 4 weeks.
I have never deloaded even like pre-cycling when all I did was gym ~4 a week. Just hadnât heard of doing it. Makes sense though. I also havenât deloaded since I started lifting 1/week since the new year and have only missed 1 week. As for progression rate, all lifts have gone up by ~20-25 pounds so far, interestingly havenât had a lot of muscle soreness in anything but legs but doing more volume with them and also 8-10 hours of cycling each week, whereas chest, shoulders and back are just chilling in between those once a week workouts.
Iâve found the best way to reduce DOMS, is to just stick with lifting and never get away from it for too long. For me, if I was touch and go for strength workouts, yeah it was DOMS-city anytime getting back to it. Maybe it was 2 weeks regularly, missing out for a few weeks then DOMS getting back into it. Especially as Iâve gotten older, itâs gotten worse.
For you, not sure exactly what you have for goals strength wise or how youâre approaching it but I would say those first week or 2, keep things manageable as far as volume (reps/sets) and intensity (weight). Think RPE 6 or 7 max. That way, you can get acclimated and give yourself space to progress if youâre trying to do that. Then once youâre in the routine of strength workouts, stick with it.