I’ve never really had a problem with Wahoo lying about numbers, even when it’s not to their advantage. All the numbers I see from them seem to match when I look at other sources as well. They could be lying, but again, I don’t think so. What I think they’ve misunderstood (and still do to this day), is the impact of the issue on customer perception. And this thread is a perfect example of that. For example, the lack of a KICKR '19 (however small an update could have been), would have at least made people wonder if it’s ‘finally solved’, versus the never-ending perception (rightly or wrongly) that the KICKR18 is still broken.
RE: ERG Mode Smoothing on KICKR bike
They’re set to update that in a firmware update (no timeframe specified). Keep in mind, the 2014 version never had that issue initially actually, it wasn’t till V2 that they introduced it (down the road I think the 2014 version had a firmware update that matched V2, but I haven’t pulled it out in a long time).
Curious that new off the shelf don’t have the issue. When I say that, “new off the shelf don’t have issues”, after one failure, you would think you would get a new off the shelf or guaranteed tested (well, they’d tell you it was tested but not guarantee). I’ve walked mine back into REI and swapped for a new off the shelf last year when it was at the worst only to have that “new off the shelf” fail in 30 days. When a Kickr failed, they would send you a “tested” unit. How can that failed and another and another. I agree, it’s calmed down from last year. I’ve got someone using my 5th Kickr replacement with no word on issues yet, so it’s probably resolved in my case. I picked up a neo 2 and have had no issues. I was curious about the neo 2t but looks like it has that initial growing pain that most do.
Just to give you an idea where I’m at, I purchased in the very beginning, September 2018. First one died in 30 days, returned to REI, that died in another 30 days. Started to get a little concerned about the Kickr lasting, returned it for the H2, (that Kickr has no issues at that point) didn’t care for the H2 and picked up another Kickr. Third one died, piked up the fourth 11/6, replaced it with my fifth on 2/5/2019 (made it the longest). Fifth lasted until 4/30 when it died and was replaced. So the sixth (my mistake earlier, thought it was five) is still in use. I just kept getting that 3%. I’ve kept this, the receipts, serial number and videos of each one. Doesn’t matter any more, I’ve moved on, some day I’ll delete that folder but I’ll never forget the eight months I’ve dealt with the Kickr.
If that’s the case, how do we explain the replacement/warrantied units coming straight from Wahoo with the same issues? Sometimes 3, 4, 5 replacements before getting a good unit?
The repeated replacements people are still having to deal with TODAY is definitely disconcerting and do not provide me, as a person looking to make a new trainer purchase, with confidence in purchasing a new Kickr trainer which IS a problem, as Ray mentioned.
I don’t think here - in fall 2019 - we’re seeing people still replacing units from summer or even now fall.
I think we’re seeing people replacing units from last winter/fall.
The whole point of this discussion is really about whether buying a new unit odd the shelf now will be a problem, not whether Wahoo had a problem. Clearly they did, they and their CEO admitted as such.
(Note that I’m specifically talking about one of the three well known issues, not some random one-off that falls under the could happen to any trainer brand/model type thing.)
See @Pedro_Prego’s post on this thread from June 28. Not sure if what he says is true or not, but it certainly makes sense and was my experience after going through 3 KICKRs. Once you send in a KICKR for replacement, you are not given a new one off the factory floor, but instead a previously returned/refurbished item from the factory floor, which puts a bandaid on the issue, but does not actually address the underlying problem (as it would require completely trashing the flywheel mechanism, per the thread above).
Anecdotally, I went through 3 KICKR '18s, my brother went through 3, I met a guy on a ride this year that went through 2 of them, and know someone else who had one fail as well. Ironically, even one of DCRs review videos from earlier this year had a KICKR failure—while he was recording the video for the review! Obviously my personal experience does not define a trend for everyone’s KICKR problems, but I think the problems are MUCH higher than the reported 3-4% failure rate.
I have no ill will towards Wahoo, and they are certainly capable of making great products, but it will be quite some time before I would consider getting another smart trainer from them.
Regardless of when the user purchased the original unit, I would think that the replacement unit shipped today from Wahoo would, if your theory is correct, not exhibit the same problems as those earlier units. Yet, we still hear of multiple users who are on their 4th or 5th unit shipped directly from Wahoo. How do you reconcile this?
my last thoughts on this and I’ll leave it alone. I think we who have seen the worse may not jump back in the pool and buy another. I’ve talked to people about trainers and I don’t disregard them. I went to a bike shop that I usually don’t go to in June of this year and they had a Kickr on display. They (the shop) were hesitant at first if they would sell as they are a high dollar item. They flew off the shelf and the store employee said he didn’t get any back. I think it was honest opinion and it sounded like they were doing well.
I assume that like most manufacturers of complex products dealing with a return wave, they pile the returned units, repair and test them, and use them for replacement of the next units to be returned. This is typically called B-stock: you can’t sell it as new products, but you use them for replacements. Of course, in a well-managed manufacturing environment, you are particularly careful to make sure these are repaired to the latest standards, since they will be delivered to unhappy customers to replace failed units,a nd the last thing you want is a second failure for those customers.
Now since the replacement units are effectively mostly failed-then-repaired units, they will statistically originate from your worst batches - those that generated the most returns. I must assume from the numerous episodes of multiple returns that the repair/test process is/was seriously flawed, and/or that the worst batches were plagued with underlying issues that were not fixed, or were fixed incorrectly.
This sort of problem does not have any bearing on the quality level of recent batches. But an organization that releases and ships large volumes of products that end up with unacceptable return rates and demonstrates a lack of control of the repair cycle is more liable to let other quality issues linger or creep in.
There’s a lot of maybe and perhaps and statistically in those statements.
(Way back machine tidbit here)
Remember that V1 got a firmware update sometime down the road that basically turns off the power meter in it, and uses estimation instead. This was when it ‘gained’ the ERG mode smooothing, as the original KICKR actually never had that - it performed as expected.
It wasn’t till I posted about the annoyance of ERG Mode smoothing in the V2 unit in my review that they decided to add an option, which showed up some time later.
Fast forward a while (another year I think?), and they then released a firmware update for the V1 that ditched leveraging the power meter (mainly because it got damaged in transit, which reduced accuracy). My guess at this point as to why they don’t offer a toggle for V1 for ERG mode smoothing is probably at the point where the ERG mode smoothing for V1 gives them some margin of error or something.
sorry to resurrect - i just got bit by this noise bug today …ive alerted my bike shop - in the interim - is it best to not keep riding ? will i have to venture into this thing they refer to as the ‘real world’ …grim indeed …
I don’t have a knife in this discussion (er, fight) as I’m on a gen1 Kickr, but for those seeing problems, it would be helpful to know when you received your current Kickr 18 and if you purchased it new or if it is a replacement under warranty.
I’m looking to upgrade in the next couple of years - 202O / 2021 - so interested in the general quality question, but would love to see data and not anecdotes.
I agree Alphadogcycing. I think a poll somewhere that you could tick what trainer you have(Kickr, core, h1, h2, neo) then if you have had a warranty issue.
This could give us our own micro set of data to put it into perspective.
The problem with Purchase dates of products you still gave no control of how old it is. I purchased a Kask Protone from my lbs last month that was manufactured in 2017.
A poll would be great, but I do think it needs some date (manufactured would be best, but purchased date would be a proxy) to see if problems are increasing, decreasing, etc. Otherwise, you might see a “higher” percentage of problems for a specific make & model year, but those issues could either be getting worse or better, and it would be good to be able to see this.
Has anyone had any luck with out of warranty repairs? I purchased my Kickr second-hand and therefore don’t have the original purchase receipt. It is under a year old (from the original purchase) but I would like to know how hard and fast their rule around needing proof of purchase is.
They had problems with every generation. 2018 just seems to be “bigger” because of the raw number of units sold. The absence of quality assurance has been very consistent.
Numbers? I don’t work for them and would venture that it’s a sensitive info within. The voices are definitely getting louder and here’s my recollection of faults floating around various boards:
Gen 1 - PM
Gen 2 - flywheel & optical sensor
Gen 3 - flywheel again and control board
Seem to recall issues manifested themselves much later in gen 2 than current crop.