Avoiding Burn Out

[ibaldwin]

@DarthShivious

I love this approach. A long tempo ride is something I greatly enjoy. All this talk of “no go zone” for tempo is pure nonsense in my unscientific opinion.

It’s an outdated response for sure. Nothing beats long Z2, but more time crunched folks should explore tempo versions of “SS” workouts. Ditch a bit of fatigue, and maintain/gain nearly the same fitness response. The anti-tempo sentiment was an old school CTS and TP reaction to getting riders into structured training; it was considered the no-go zone because most riders default to tempo in fun cruising rides. Then high intensity stuff was/is sexier and easier to market to the time crunched cyclist. TR picked up on the benefits of SS and beat it like a drum.

To each their own, but tempo has a place IMO.

[rhorn]

I was new to indoor training at end of 2020 and used TR initially from Jan-March 2021 having spent time on Zwift and others. I completed SSB1 and started off on SSB2 only to have to quit early out of Carpathian Peak through exhaustion (TRBO?), I tried a few days rest, came back to Carpathian a week later and finished but only by dialling down 10%. I also acquired Patella tendinitis which did clear up after I started outdoors riding more in the Spring but it took a few weeks.

Last winter I elected to only ride Z2 or under up to Xmas (a lot of Wahoo Systm Inspiration videos), whilst I started (for the first time) doing supplemental gym work, lifting etc. I then started back on Trainerroad after Xmas, completing the first 4 week SSB block, which felt like it went well, I didnt feel burned out but then I started getting Patella tendinitis again as I got into the 2nd block, so I backed off the indoor training a few weeks again until outdoor riding picked up. By the summer my FTP was up 20-30W compared with the previous summer.

For me this winter I plan to do two things

• Repeat last winters approach of easy riding for first couple of months, and concentrate on gym work. I think this made a big difference by in terms of allowing some recovering from cycling and building cycling-specific strength
• Then I am considering rather than SSB1 - SSB2 - Build etc, I will alternate base and build blocks, mainly as I believe it is repeated ERG intervals around threshold that causes the Patella problems. Workouts with more rest / shorter but harder intervals dont seem to cause the same problems
• I also think, with doing work in the gym and generally a long club ride on Sundays even through the winter, I will limit to two hard interval sessions per week, so missing one of the LV sessions per week

[IvyAudrain]

Whoops! I think the abundance of added un-subscribed volume here can lead us to conclude that this is less of a ‘burnout’ from your training plan, and more a self-induced fatigue (mental and likely physical) from tacking on a bunch of extra endurance.

I don’t think doing less than the three key workouts assigned in a Low Volume plan is the key to helping you get faster. Those are super key systems that are very intentionally assigned, so missing one crucial workout a week wont set you up super well for success.

I think its possible that you like to add all that volume because you love to ride, and thats okay! We can make that work, but it also means you need to do your due diligence in making sure you’re setting yourself up from a nutrition, recovery, and rest aspect to handle a higher volume.

Finally, that mental burnout that you feel looming is synonymous with any training and coaching experience. From my very first season doing structured training to even now, there are times when having to do structured ‘work’ on the bike almost every ride feels so cognitively taxing. Its normal, and it means it may be time to do something fun off-the-bike and sub out some short endurance chill/fun rides for your workouts if you need a mental reset after your C training event.

Take a little bit off that extra unstructured endurance, recalibrate and refocus on recovery/nutrition/everything that goes along with ‘high’ volume, and check back in to let us know how you’re feeling afterwards.

[voldemort]

Here is what I do:

This year I followed the principles/structure of a TR plan, but essentially did it as “unstructured rides” (still do intervals, just have variable recovery intervals and overall time of ride). On weekdays I will hit the zone that TR plan wants me to hit. Sometimes when I feel good I do longer intervals, if I feel tired I do shorter intervals. I do a z2 ride on wednesdays between tuesday and thursday rides. Sometimes I will add in another z2 ride on friday if it is particlarly good weather. On weekends, I do two longer rides both days. Saturday is either sweetspot/tempo/threshold, Sunday is z2. Generally all rides are outside unless it is raining or winter.

For me, this has worked better than following TR plan/workouts to the letter. It might mean I leave gains on the table, but this keeps me super consistent and keeps it exciting. There is no more failing workouts. There are only days where I feel better and days I feel worse. The main downfall is that I don’t get the AT benefits (I have to do this myself based on how I feel). All of my PLs are at 1. PLs 2.0 should change this for me though.

Point being, too much structure makes me feel “trapped” and always leads to burnout - in all aspects of my life. This has been my solution and it has worked wonderfully.

[Nate_Pearson]

I think the title of this thread is unfair.

You’re not following the structure of our training plans. How you’ve changed the plan is the opposite of what we say to do through our education channels (podcast, youtube, blog, forum).

What I see is a recipe for burnout. I’d like to describe what I’m seeing to educate athletes on the forum and suggest how you can tweak your plan when you add additional volume.

Can I post some sample weeks to give everyone context?

[FergusYL]

With or without his particular calendar, this would be tremendously helpful. I’m in the same situation as many right now with the season winding down, trying to figure out what to do next, but there’s a great deal of conflicting info.

As a basic starting point - some general TR-approved guidelines for adding volume to an LV plan for masters athletes would be a huge help.

[HMG]

@Nate_Pearson

I think the title of this thread is unfair.

I like the discussion but agree with this point. The title is unfair.

I would reiterate that getting somewhat sick of training over the span of a season with structured base/build/specialty is pretty expected. If you are just stomping every workout and feel like a million bucks after your peak event, you probably didn’t maximize your training. Whether that is good or not is a different topic, but it is likely true.

[AussieRider]

@Nate_Pearson

You’re not following the structure of our training plans. How you’ve changed the plan is the opposite of what we say to do through our education channels (podcast, youtube, blog, forum).

I’ve listened to every podcast, devoured this forum and have consulted with a multitude of TR staff. When the first staff member I spoke to suggested I do mid or high volume I raised the general consensus of doing LV with easier unstructured longer rides added. The second staff member suggested this was the way to go. Which I have pretty much done (with the odd exception) for the past five months. I’m not sure how I’ve done the “opposite” of what you say? And for clarification, I’m not burnt out. I’m starting to feel the mental fatigue of doing three intense sessions per week. And that’s ok.

I have an all out hill climb C race on Saturday. TR had me doing a very intense Vo2 workout on Friday. I deleted that workout to give my body a day to recover. In order to compensate I did a vo2 effort last Sunday (in case that’s the week you’re looking to highlight). I also took today off and will take Sunday off. That’s an attempt to preload last week in order to take extra days off this week.

@Nate_Pearson

What I see is a recipe for burnout. I’d like to describe what I’m seeing to educate athletes on the forum and suggest how you can tweak your plan when you add additional volume.

Please do. I’m all for learning!

@Nate_Pearson

Can I post some sample weeks to give everyone context?

Sample weeks of my training? For sure. But please look at my training as a whole rather than focusing on a specific week.

Also take into account my specific circumstances as opposed to the average TR user.

I don’t work, have no kids, stress or added pressure. I can wake up or sleep whenever I like. I eat extremely well. I’m a former athlete from a different sport.

[rb250660]

TR only got me so far until I hit a plateau. At 45yo three sessions a week (LV plans + a long endurance ride) were too much for me and with a significant amout of sweetspot they became unproductive I feel. I will say that I started cycling 18 moths ago using TR and have a lot to be thankful for; the increase in fitness and learning about training was invaluable. However I feel the fitness I had was fragile and burned out in the end.

Once I had the confidence to build my own plans with workouts designed by me with specific purpose placed into logical blocks, and not dwelling on one system for too long, my FTP and fatigue resistance moved in the right direction noticably. I fill the rest of the week with endurance (including one long ride) to make 5 rides a week.

Sweetspot should be used sparingly I believe. The TR high volume plans will have you doing what, four workouts a week? Way way too much and quite franlkly it’s terrible plan design and will blow anyone up doing the work correctly (i.e. completing each workout without failure). Failing a workout and bailing is unacceptable in my opinion and I often see people on here say they do just that. When you fail workouts you are setting yourself up to fail the next, and the next, until you’re in a position of getting no benefit/adaptation for them. You just end up piling on the fatigue and plateauing in the end.

Honestly I view TR as something for a beginner or for those who don’t want to think about what and why they are training and want workouts blindly handed to them. And there’s nothing wrong with that however I don’t think it’s an optimal solution for those who really want the best for themselves. There’s only so much that can be gained from the TR plans I feel, then it’s time to educate yourself and move on.

Note:

• I still use TR (only for the trainer control and interface) however design all of my own workouts and pull them from TP.
• Your TSS is quite high, on my on weeks I’m at about 11hrs and 500-600TSS.

[rb250660]

@AussieRider

I’m starting to feel the mental fatigue of doing three intense sessions per week. And that’s ok.

It’s not ok - it’s a good sign of the beginning of burn out. My optinion - back it off to two very high quality workouts per week and absolutely nail them.

[hubcyclist]

i’ve done and enjoyed the TR plans and did adaptive training under the beta and it was all good. This year, though, I decided to work on more z2 volume and limit hard days to 2 a week. Aside from vacation in early July for a weekish, I’ve been totally structured all year doing 13-15hrs as of late. Just this past week I did 2 vo2 sessions and on both weekend days I did 4hr z2 rides. For me, it’s a good balance of hard workouts and just riding more.

[rb250660]

@hubcyclist

For me, it’s a good balance of hard workouts and just riding more.

I really like this. I had a decent step up in FTP when I decided, with some purpose, to ‘just ride my bike a lot’. All endurance with one VO2 maintenance session a week.

[HMG]

It’s also a good sign that a strong training stimulus is being introduced. Doing an appropriate taper after something like this can lead to great performances. Clearly, @AussieRider goals and your goals are different.

[AussieRider]

@IvyAudrain

Take a little bit off that extra unstructured endurance, recalibrate and refocus on recovery/nutrition/everything that goes along with ‘high’ volume, and check back in to let us know how you’re feeling afterwards.

Thanks Ivy. I actually mentioned that in my initial post!

@AussieRider

For the next month I think I’m going to drop one of the long Z2 rides and take on more rest days to give me more of a chance to recover for the harder efforts

[slowmart]

@AussieRider going from unstructured to structured training will mean the intensity will always increase with structure ensuring you hit all your systems.

Did you adapt your recovery and diet with the increased intensity to support the adaptation? I’m 55 and the need for quality sleep and diet is imperative for me.

While recovery is just as important as intensity you’ll need to factor in some down time, both physically as well as mentally.

While you use the downtime to reflect take comfort from the increases you’ve enjoyed and earned. As to next season, the main focus should be on sustainability for the long term. Only you can decide what’s right for you, sustained improvements may be acceptable to you, even if relatively small, but don’t forget FTP is only one datum. Alternatively maxing out gains may take you a different path.

[WindWarrior]

@AussieRider

I’m not sure how I’ve done the “opposite” of what you say?

Perhaps you didn’t use TrainNow for the added volume?

[batwood14]

@AussieRider

I don’t work, have no kids, stress or added pressure. I can wake up or sleep whenever I like.

This is the first time I’ve heard this. Ever. Anywhere.

[Nate_Pearson]

Here’s an example block.

I’d like to see more space between the intense days.

4/5/6 goes Race, Progressive Sweet Spot, Stretch VO2

I think having the 5th (tallac) be an easier endurance ride, a recovery ride, or a rest day would have been a better choice.

And after that hard block you have a 3:21 hour ride with lots of threshold and sweet spot.

If you are going to do a long ride on that day, with that hard block before, I would keep the watts at or below 65% of your threshold (171w) to make sure it’s really endurance.

So AP/NP closer to 171w vs 205np/186w that you did.

Now you have four hard days in a row, and you finish the week with over-unders and a 4-hour ride on the 9th and 10th.

It looks like you often climb the same mountain on your rides. On the 9th 4-hour ride you did 212np for 1:08:21 or 80% of threshold. Again, if this were an endurance ride, I’d like to see the watts much lower.

This pattern repeats itself on your calendar. It’s either stacking hard days or putting really big “endurance” days between intense days.

You’re not taking sufficient recovery/rest weeks either.

Here’s some weekly TSS since April:
642
813
927
744
867
819
687
652
834
815
733
488 (This is close to a recovery week but you threw in a four hour ride)
702
795
677
625
707

Here’s Low Volume Climbing Road Race (what you said you were on) TSS per week for reference.
188
218
202
173 (recovery)
218
234
199
196

You have many single rides that beat an entire week of volume.

You can obviously handle a huge amount of volume! It’s the end of the season, and you’re starting to get crispy, which is common, but I think we can improve on some things.

1. Don’t stack hard back-to-back days unless you have real recovery before/after it.
2. Keep the watts lower on long endurance rides, especially if they are between intense rides.
3. When you reduce your TSS to recover, remove the intensity too. On your lower 600 TSS weeks, you’re still doing threshold/SS/VO2 intervals.

The only issue I have with this post is the title. “Avoiding TRBO: TrainerRoad Burn Out”. It sounds like you’re doing low volume and then adding a few endurance rides. Like TrainerRoad has prescribed you what you’re doing, and that is why you are burning out.

But looking at your calendar, you’re doing something much more ambitious than even TR high volume plans; with 6-day hard blocks, stacking hard TR workouts without recovery before/after, and huge “endurance” days (that aren’t really endurance) between hard workouts.

I am tired of just looking at your calendar. But dude, if you can tweak this a bit and focus on raising your threshold and recovering, I bet you will SLAY in races. Your training capacity is unreal!

And as a point of reference, here’s what 4 weeks of our LV Climbing Road Race plan looks like.

[ajsds66]

The man is a beast.

[HMG]

Dude should taper and go win nationals