Indoor I might, but if I were to the rides outside would not get close to 83% of LTHR with the standard Z2 rides from Trainerroad.
This is a hijack, but hopefully a brief one. What was it about coaching that helped so much? Accountability? Someone elseās objective view?
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Reduce trial&error, and figure out how to adapt training to ride consistently as I approached and passed thru turning sixty. Before getting a coach I knew how to go all-out sprinting or all-out vo2max or full gas pacing for 10/20/30/40/50/60 minutes, I knew how to listen to my body during HIIT intervals and reduce number of intervals (but did I leave something on the table?), and I believed that consistently working on endurance would compound and deliver results. But I had a hard time putting it all together into a sensible yet challenging plan. And also getting perspective working thru times when things arenāt going well (usually outside stress). And yes, there is some benefit to knowing someone is looking over my shoulder at results. Hope that helps.
Yep, it does. I think I can look at the data and see whatās happened, but I donāt do a good job of understanding why one thing works better than another.
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and also for reasons spelled out here:
my coach has 10+ years progressive experience and works with juniors to seniors. Its his job to stay up on what the best coaches are doing, and adapting for my physiology/situation.
It generally does for me as well. I monitor HR during a workout and if my HR is getting above that level I just knock the intensity back a notch until it does. Interestingly I generally have no problem keeping my HR below that level in the morning but if I do a workout in the afternoon my HR is consistently higher. Sometimes appreciably.
Iām in an indoor Z2 with TR phase right now and I donāt get very close to 83% of LTHR during those rides (even during the hardest level Z2 workouts up to 2hrs Iām at about 80% toward the end). I do get to about 73% of max HR so that lines up with the low end of ISMās recommendations.
That said, I watched my DFA Alpha 1 for the first time during a 2hr Z2 ride yesterday and I got under 0.75 pretty quickly, including lots of time around 0.5 for the last half of the ride.
What does all this mean? I have no idea but will keep experimenting.
ISM recommendations require lactate, anything else is shooting in the dark IMHO.
Thru trial and error Iāve set the top of my Zone2 HR at 143bpm, which is about 89-90% LTHR. I ride by power and average HR is just below the top of zone2. Here is ride from 2 days ago:
about 100 minutes endurance with 10 minutes on either end for warm/cool down. About 74% IF and average 86% LTHR, however both power & HR slowly increase over that time (decoupling 0.2% so no decoupling). %LTHR is bottom right of the HR graph. The green band is 66-79% ftp.
And last night:
about 70 minutes at 77% IF and 88% LTHR.
Again thru trial and error Iāve learned that level I can sustainable do a two or three focused 90-110 minute sessions a week as part of a 2+ hour outside ride. Target is about 8-11 hours/week.
Iām going for performance while balancing recovery. Pushing higher loads requires more force on pedals, and seems to give me better endurance when it matters (epic events, Wed worlds, etc).
Iāll also add my HR is more ācompressedā compared to others Iāve seen. A higher floor and lower ceiling. Threshold efforts are around 90% HRmax.
Hope that helps, I believe if you donāt go to the lab you need to experiment and figure it out for yourself.
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How he defines LT1 using lactate? 0.5 mmol above lowest reading?
Donāt know, Iām not testing lactate.
It completely depends on the individualās physiology.
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Couzens has some good posts on lactate curves. With examples so you can see how the curves vary between different athletes.
https://alancouzens.blogspot.com Is the site and then from the right side topic menu select the Blood Lactates label
There is also the TR Forum Lactate testing thread where you can see some additional real world curves generated by forum participants. Thread has been quiet as of late.
Happy reading and Good training.
-Darth
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I looked at DFA Alpha 1 while following a more normal aerobic threshold test protocol (gentle ramp test with 6min steps) and it dropped to 0.75 at the end of a step that averaged 242W and 135bpm, which is close to the 251W top of my Zone 2, and spot on for the HR I see for the meat of Z2 rides in TR. So Iām going to keep it simple and say that for me anyway the answer to that question is yes.
Reviving an old one here. Iād say a lot of people are pretty well acquainted with LT1 and LT2, but who is experienced with putting it the interpretations into practice? I seem to be falling into the trap that because LT1 is lower on the aerobic power scale, that itās pretty repeatable which doesnāt seem to be the case.
How often (sessions/wk) should/do people train at their LT1 if thatās what theyāre trying to improve? I have a pretty well defined power curve but find my LT1 workouts really inconsistent. Itās something I can nail once every 7-10 days (going out 3+ hours)
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Iāve been doing negative splits, outside on 120+ minute workouts. For me that is starting around 170W / 138bpm and by the mid point, or last third, Iām pushing 200W / 138-140bpm. Repeatedly. A lot of negative decoupling on those 120 minute workouts. Let me break that down into percentages ftp although you need to find your own.
My coach suggested starting easy, taking time to warmup, and then push power up. He assigns a range of 66-79% and after a 10 minute warmup Iām starting around 63%. After another 10+ minutes Iām settling in around 68% and by the end itās 73-75%. Iām able to do a lot of endurance work in that range, on 10 hour weeks. Learned the % from paying attention to my fatigue, paying attention to my breathing, and having pretty good data on a challenging but doable āall day HRā (my proxy for low aerobic threshold / LT1).
Heard āstart lower and let the power come to youā several times on Empirical Cycling, including the latest 10 Minute Tips #22 The Case Against Erg Mode (very balanced, deserves its own thread). There isnāt any chapter markers, and I donāt recall where it comes up. Some good anecdotes on pros he coaches with really high lab measured LT1s that do endurance at lower wattage to deal with fatigue (Iām assuming they ride a lot more hours/week than I do).
Hope that helps with a framework you can use, and experiment to find what works for you.
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Does anyone know a good way to record Power & HRV into 1 file without a Garmin cycling computer?
I have a polar H10 & want to look into DFA Aa1 using software like Runalyze.
Donāt think a Wahoo Element Bolt V1 logs HRV and my Garmin 645 watch can log HRV but not power.
Suppose I could merge the 2 files into 1 somehow.
But the best case would be some PC software that will connect to both over Bluetooth for better quality data.
You can try the VO2master phone app. I believe that will record everything into one FIt file.
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POL = polarized ?
What do you mean with pure ISM? I think he stands for several times per week z2 (AeT) + some z4 work.
So this is an older thread and Iāve just gotten back into riding after 20+ years out of the sport. Injury and illness. But I read through the whole thing yesterday. I came across the DFA A1/ HRV Logger back in early 2022 and gave it a shot when I tried to get back on the bike.
After reading this thread yesterday I went and looked at my old data for the couple of weeks that I was able to ride back then. I would do 45 minute trainer rides with a 10 min warm up and then every 6 mins I would increase the load then cool down for a few minutes.
I would hit the 0.75 at around a heart rate of about 145, which seemed high based on all the Zone 2 stuff I had been reading back then. ISM, Maffatone, etc.
So when I got back on the bike a few months ago and was able to make it stick this time, I was armed with the idea that my Zone 2 upper limit should be around the 140ish HR. I went out and rode like this after the first few weeks of just getting out there doing completely unstructured rides with no HR, Power etc data.
Once I started realizing I could make a go of it this time, I started using HR data again. Holding the 140 ish HR was fine for about the first 1-2 hours but then Iād completely blow up and just creep home. Since Zone 2 should be an all day type of thing, Iām pretty sure I was not Zone 2.
For reference Iām now 49 and the MAF formula puts me at about 131 HR. Which honestly since Iāve been riding a good bit the last few weeks (10 hrs/wk) feels like a better and more doable effort. Iām all in on the Zone 2 thing as back in 2001 when I last raced I had been doing A LOT of Zone 2 and was absolutely flying in Feb of '01 leading up to Valley of the Sun before I crashed on a training ride and got seriously injured and forced me out of the sport.
So my question is does anyone else see such a disparity between what their Zone 2 actually is and what HRV Logger tells them?
My understanding is that DFA Alpha-1 is a proxy for the aerobic threshold. Zone 2 is typically just below that. If you are riding right at dfa alpha-1 you are at the top of zone 2 and possibly falling into zone 3 since the calculations arenāt super precise and HR can be influenced greatly by heat, caffeine, fatigue, etc. Personally, I donāt think that is an all day intensity.
One common training mistake seems to be the idea that riding at the top of the endurance zone must be better than riding at the bottom or middle of the zone. The adaptations, caused by hours and hours of muscle contractions, will be essentially same whether you are at the top or bottom of the zone so the longer you ride, the lower in the zone you need to ride so that you donāt generate a lot of fatigue requiring additional recovery.
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