Can you please explain what your trying to say? I am not following.
It seems that you are having an issue with me wanting to remove racial slurs from the common dialogue of the conquering white man and from society as a whole?
In Canada many indigenous people find “indian” offensive. We are not indians as we are not from India where the name comes from. But we will hold on to that offensive name as the only document that protects us is the “INDIAN ACT”.
Amendments to the Indian Act in 1951 made it no longer illegal for First Nations people to:
gather in groups of more than three
leave the reserve without a pass
hire a lawyer
own property
practise their culture
But many of the more harmful provisions still remained, including:
the definition of who is an “Indian”
the reserve system
residential school policies
an imposed system of government
As of 2017, all of these provisions still remain, except residential schools.
1985
In 1985, Bill C-31 was passed, amending the Indian Act to bring it into line with gender equality under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. There were three major goals:
to address gender discrimination in the Indian Act
to restore Indian status to those who had been forcibly enfranchised
to allow First Nations to control their own membership as a step toward self-government
The Indian Act today
The Indian Act is still in force, which is a major reason why the use of the offensive term “Indian” persists today.
Note: The Indian Act uses the terms “Indian” and “White” as these were the terms used at the time. These are not terms that you should use in your conversations."
Please don’t take my response the wrong way, but I want to understand your point of view a bit better. In your mind, is there a way to integrate other cultures in a positive way? I’m of course not talking about obviously racist team names like “Redskins”, but, say, when this is reflected in the names of places (e. g. the Dakotas).
For example, when I was a kid, the German word for gay was “schwul” (adjective) or “Schwuler” (noun, both are used only for men), and it was a curse word in the minds of the majority. But the German gay community took these words and “decided” it was acceptable. (I’m putting “decided” in quotation marks, because obviously there was no meeting of all German gay men who then voted. I think you get the point, though.) Now those words are neutral. A counter example would be variations of the n-word in English, some of which were accepted up until the 1960s, but the African American community changed their mind. (I’m totally cool with that, language is about respect and if I address you in a way that you don’t want to be addressed, the fault is mine.)
Are there words like that that you find acceptable to use? If a bike company wants to name itself after the name of a tribe, is that a problem as a matter of principle? Or if a race runs through a region that used to be the home to tribes and you decide to honor it? Could ignoring the connection to indigenous tribes be worse (a form of whitewashing if you wish)? What if this person or persons do have a connection after all, but the connection is not obvious from e. g. the name(*)?
(*) To give you a real life example: I’m German, but I am married to a Japanese. My kids are being raised biculturally, and hence, I am connected to Japanese culture, it is part of my family. But if you met me alone, you would never know.
It comes down to inclusion and consultation with the parties involved. If the group has no issues then go for it.
“Are there words like that that you find acceptable to use? If a bike company wants to name itself after the name of a tribe, is that a problem as a matter of principle?”
If they do it without consultation and permission, use pictures of dead indigenous leaders and use white models in indigenous dress with warpaint it is an fing problem and that is what is happening.
There are also companies that reach out to different cultures and work with them to collaborate and create respectful products and partnerships. 7mesh is one and there are others.
“Or if a race runs through a region that used to be the home to tribes and you decide to honor it? Could ignoring the connection to indigenous tribes be worse (a form of whitewashing if you wish)? What if this person or persons do have a connection after all, but the connection is not obvious from e. g. the name(*)?”
In Canada they usually make land acknowledgements. We respect that we are on unceded land of the x people. Nice to say… but the are acknowledging they are on stolen land, they have taken the land and %#@! you about the land. Many times “tribes” are consulted and participate in events and partner somewhat.
Again it is about respect and inclusion.
matters. Dirty Kanza translates into dirty indian according to some indigenous people.
Thanks for your questions. I am learning new points of view.
I guess this might be one of the sticky points: I know next to nothing about the indigenous peoples of the US and Canada (even though I have lived in both countries), but I am pretty sure there is a diversity of opinion.
I reckon your point is to engage in dialog and start to build bonds based on respect, but not to expect to reach agreement every single time.
Let me try to unpack this. Again, I don’t mean to be insensitive or tone deaf, I’m just trying to understand your point of view better: if someone wears an inaccurate costume, e. g. for Carnival in Germany or to sell more bikes, but does so because they have positive connotations with their costume. Do you take offense at e. g. the inaccurate portrayal, that the costume feels like a caricature to you, or is it just the commercialization of something that is dear to you?
Maybe as a point of comparison: a lot of non-Germans associate Lederhosen with Germany, and think it is/was a traditional German dress. But in reality it is only really a thing in Bavaria, Austria, the German-speaking part of Italy and bits of Switzerland. Basically, 88+ % of Germans don’t think this is part of their German heritage and just a weird traditional dress of Bavarians. When I see this trope, part of me is annoyed because the person didn’t even get the stereotype right. And that is despite me having lived in Bavaria and having even contemplated getting Lederhosen, because it is still part of Bavarian (≠ German) culture.
Does that somehow approximate how you feel when you see a white person in a bad costume?
I knew there was something familiar about the way you write! But your use of English is so good that I couldn’t place it. You are German!
My wife is German, and my daughters are dual citizens. I’m in the US at the moment but I’ll be joining them near Stuttgart in a couple months. Man, the Swabians… talk about a culture.
Anyway. I think you hit the nail on the head regarding positive connotations. We can all agree that slurs are bad, but I truly see nothing wrong with dressing up as something because you like it.
If we forbid this, then NOBODY can dress up as anything anymore. I could make a case for any costume you put on as being a part of someone’s culture somewhere. People dress as vikings. Done. Marvel comics and Thor, DONE.
Again, I think we’re fighting over the stupidest crap while people rape this world behind the scenes.
Here is a cultural appropriation example from germany.
I’ve never really understood why, but germans love to sing the happy birthday song in english. So many times they’ll sing “Zum Geburtstag viel Glueck” and then they’ll sing it in english, which always comes out “Happy birssssday to you!!” and they love it and have a great time doing it. Secretly I always laugh internally but am I offended? Of course not.
When we start limiting what people can say and do it has the worst effects. It can be abused. Get rid of cultural references too much, you get rid of a culture.
I hope you and @FatBoySlim don’t mind if I jump into this thought-provoking thread. Btw I’m also German. I think an important aspect to consider is that historical context and power relations matter. So in a context where a group of people has been denigrated and oppressed historically (and even now) then its understandable that they are critical of appropriation or commercialisation by the more powerful group. So, using a slightly different example from yours, tourists wearing Dirndl and Lederhosen isn’t appropriation (or maybe it is, but it’s not a big deal for most locals, especially if they have Trachtenshops and make money from that) because Bavarians haven’t been oppressed and no one has tried to take away their culture or oppress them. But when your people have a long history of oppression by colonial settlers then even ‘respectful’ appropriation may not feel respectful. @FatBoySlim interesting what you say about 7mesh. I’ve never bought anything from them (too expensive) but I’ve felt a bit uncomfortable about how they seem to be using an indigenous work to market themselves (but to be honest, I don’t know much about the brand).
The way I understand it is that Kanza means both the People AND the Land. In the eyes of the first nations of the region, the People and the land are one, so when someone that doesn’t know that context assumes Kanza only means The Land, and we find ourselves in a pickle because no one thought to ask.
That happened and still happens across cultures so often that people don’t know what they’re doing and end up creating something that is resented for a long time or at least until someone speaks up. It’s endemic at this point, but that doesn’t mean it cannot be addressed which is what I believe @FatBoySlim is trying to draw attention to. Well not JUST that, but we have to start somewhere even if it makes folks that don’t know any better all pouty because they have to learn new words or ways of describing things.
So 1) Acknowledge appropriation when it’s pointed out 2) make a genuine effort to adjust if asked to do so.
Is it as easy as flipping a switch? Nope, it’s going to take some effort, but far too many don’t even want to try because it does take some mental work to break the habit.
“Let me try to unpack this. Again, I don’t mean to be insensitive or tone deaf, I’m just trying to understand your point of view better: if someone wears an inaccurate costume, e. g. for Carnival in Germany or to sell more bikes, but does so because they have positive connotations with their costume. Do you take offense at e. g. the inaccurate portrayal, that the costume feels like a caricature to you, or is it just the commercialization of something that is dear to you?”
it is cultural appropriation for profit.
It is insulting to indigenous people that are still highly discriminated against today. Indigenous people have the highest level of poverty, the lowest levels of services and health care. In the United states 52% of indigenous people do not have clean water or sanitation. Indigenous women are constantly going missing and are being murdered by non-indigenous men. Murder is the 3rd highest cause of death for indigenous women.
“Costumes”. These are traditional clothes that have deeply meaningful meanings to the people. They are not halloween costumes! (I realize you did not say that!!!)
Honour, culture and earning the right to wear such clothing. Not all indigenous people have earned the right to wear a headresses or certain clothing yet if your and ignorant person of white privilege (yes stereotype) you have the right to a full headress and war paint.
“Does that somehow approximate how you feel when you see a white person in a bad costume?”
The word costume really does not agree with me. This is traditional honoured ceremonial clothing.
This reminds me of black face and I hope we all can agree that that is not culturally acceptable in any way these days.
I do not have the right to wear such cultural clothing. I have not earned it and also am classified as Metis as the Government defrauded my great grandfather of his status around 1911. Of note My grandfather and his brother are the only 2 Canadian indigenous men that successfully sued the government for this fraud. Unfortunately it was settled out of court so I am still fighting to get our status back.
“Does that somehow approximate how you feel when you see a white person in a bad costume?”
Again its not a costume. Its ceremonial clothing that someone has earned the right to wear. If a person is wearing it they should have earned the right to wear it and it should have been awarded to them by the people regardless if they are Indigenous or white!
I appreciate your questions and your point of view! Communication is how we change the world!
I disagree with this. There is a difference between dressing up as Iron Man or Thor and dressing up in the Honoured Ceremonial clothing of an oppressed people where most of the people in that society do not have the right to wear that “costume”.
I agree with the comments about cultural appropriation, especially in the context of groups that haven’t traditionally been in positions of power.
I also want to distinguish between intentional and unintentional appropriation.
In other words, is it ok to culturally appropriate something if you don’t intend harm?
No, it’s not ok. AND, doing this doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. Because you didn’t know any better, you made a mistake. And you probably won’t recognize that mistake unless someone points it out to you.
Those who identify them should be doing their best to point those moments out without assuming someone did them intentionally.
And those of us who are identified in those moments should do our best to listen and engage in that conversation, to gain some empathy for the experience of someone else (that we will likely never experience ourselves).
Thanks to all for helping to keep this a civil, engaging conversation!
You have made some excellent points and explained them very well! Thank you!
7mesh was started by the group that founded and sold arcteryx. 7mesh donates to many causes and also donates to indigenous causes.
From 7mesh’s site.
OUR NAME
7mesh isn’t a real word. But it was inspired by a very important one.
Over the last century anthropologists have worked alongside members of the Squamish Nation to document their spoken language. The work of the BC Native Language Project developed the writing system used today, resulting in our town being known as Squamish / Sk̲wx̲wú7mesh. Inspired by this important collaboration, we adopted our name as a show of respect to the People that have lived here for countless generations, and to exemplify our goal of contributing to progress on indigenous issues in our country.
Why is progress needed? The uncomfortable truth is that Canada’s history of colonialism and treatment of Indigenous Peoples is dark, and needs to be recognized. As just one example, BC is home to 34 distinct indigenous languages, all of which are endangered. These languages were severely impacted over many decades by government policies designed to eliminate First Nations’ cultures completely.
At 7mesh we are on a learning journey, and we encourage all Canadians to familiarize themselves with the difficult parts of our history, including residential schools and the findings of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada. Let’s celebrate positive steps - but as settler-descendants and allies, let’s also recognize we have a long, long way to go.
Several organizations champion the revitalization of First Nations language and culture in Canada. Our strongest partnership is with the Indigenous Youth Mountain Bike Program, see more about the great work they do below. 7mesh has also contributed to:
I have nothing but respect for the team at 7mesh and have talked to TJ one of the owners there. In my opinion they are trying to change the world while at the same time run a profitable company. They have a very unique perspective of social and ethical responsibility that is missing in most companies. They go out of their way to work with indigenous groups on issues within their realm of influence.
In Canada anyway, MEC, is selling Ridley Kanzo’s (Kanza’s?) presumably named in such a way as to leverage sales after the now renamed event. This was two months ago. I was looking for a bike at the time and mentioned the unfortunate name to my partner and friends at a dinner thingie, most of the guests of the demographic both MEC (the once famously woke but no longer retailer) and Ridley would solicit. The universal response was “ugh, that’s awkward”. I for one immediately stopped considering Ridley as an option and have since reconsidered my relationship with MEC. I think the worm has turned so to speak, and companies will begin to shift from the market’s own accord. That said, I am complicate in not reaching out to either Ridley or MEC to let the know why I took their products off my short list. Thank you to the OP for this reminder.
We all choose to do what we are most comfortable with. I for one was complicit until I had kids.
My family had been forced onto a reserve in Alberta. The government gave them 42 square miles. The land surveyor only gave them 39. They were put there in the late summer and the government said they would be back soon with provisions to get them through the winter and then would bring them what was needed to farm and teach them the following summer. They did not come back before the winter and close to half of the people starved to death that season. In the summer the government came back and confiscated the land. Some of survivors were dispersed to other reserves. Many just left with a deep distrust of white people and the government. Some of my family moved to what is now Jasper National Park when there was nothing there. The people built homes, and returned to their traditional way of life hunting and living off the land. It was fairly remote and not in the way. This lasted for a few years. Then the government decided to build a national park there and forced the people off the land. When they didn’t leave they were burned out, harassed and hunted until they left with nothing, dispersed again.
Over the last 20 years I have done a lot of learning. The last 5 years or so has been the hardest. It is almost inconceivable the crimes the world has committed against indigenous people over the last 200 years. It is even harder to believe how they are still treated. They get pulled out when there is a crisis of awareness in ceremonial garb and get promised something and then they get forced back into the shadows with the promises forgotten. The fact that 150000 children were kidnapped from their communities and sent to residential schools is a disgrace. The fact that 25000 of those children never made it home is a crime against humanity. We now have “reconciliation” and reparations for survivors of residential schools. What a crock of shit. Reconciliation did not even include Metis and Inuit peoples. The Catholic Church did not even apologize and committed fraud to get out of paying their agreed upon settlement.
I had been quiet on this forum about this issue until I was offended by a user using the word CHIEF as part of his handle. Then I decided to speak up. This is a learning opportunity for me!
This is such a critical point….I went to Miami Universtiy in the late 80’s…Miami referring to the tribe of Native Americans from the region, it the city in FL. At the time, the team name was the Redskins.
At the time, the tribe was OK with the name (IIRC)….but at some point, they asked the school to change the name and they obliged without hesitation. The teams are now the RedHawks (which I hate, but that is a different subject).
Since then, the school has worked even harder to involve the tribe with the school, and more importantly, teach the student body about the tribe.
Similarly, when the whole DK name debacle first came, the organization went to the tribe and they said they did not have an issue with the name. However, after the organizer’s further racist POV’s were exposed, Lifetime smartly decided to change the name of the race.
Yeah, Bavarians, Saxons and Swabians have retained quite a bit of local identity. Most other Germans see themselves as Germans first, perhaps Europeans first and Germans second, people from these regions often put their region at the top of the list.
This can cut both ways: Germany doesn’t have a (long) history of using slaves from Africa unlike e. g. the US. When I was a kid, we had a type of sweet call n’s kisses. Basically, you take a waffle, put sugar foam on top and the whole big is coated with chocolate. This is my formative memory of the n-word — entirely positive, it evokes memories of early birthday parties and the like. Needless to say that black people in Germany didn’t feel the same way about it. The candy was renamed “less-offensive–n-word” kisses and is now known as foam kisses.
Likewise, my history education colored what I feel when I hear the word Jew or Jewish — but it isn’t the old-school stereotypes that come to mind, the hook-nosed Jew wringing his hands over money. My images are of people starving in concentration camps that look more dead than alive, of corpses who were systematically murdered by my ancestors.
This is what I am struggling with: some people have a very extreme understanding of “cultural appropriation”, and find e. g. white people wearing kimonos and other traditional Japanese clothes inappropriate and offensive. That is despite the fact that none of the Japanese I have met feel the same way.
That is the subtlety that is missing: the same action (e. g. wearing traditional garb) could either be totally ok with the community these came from or something they feel strongly against. In a global world, negotiating this is hard. Still, once you know about it, you should change.
Agreed. The complicating factor is that the historical context that is either missing or simply different once you talk about different countries. Europe is missing what indigenous people from the Americas (I’m including South America as well) have had to go through. We are of course vaguely familiar with the history and know the outcome, but when I learnt more, I was surprised how pernicious the relationship was, how downright evil white people had been for centuries and how long parts of this system had persisted. (Or, in some countries, still persists.)
You can see similar patterns in Japan where even quite recently, Japanese TV stations got into trouble, because some of their TV hosts would wear blackface.
I think there is an element of insecurity by the Bavarians here (I’m originally from North Rhine Westfalia, but have lived in Saxony and for a long time in Munich as well): for centuries they picked the losing side in wars and were not nearly as powerful as e. g. Prussia. Only since the 1970s or so did the Bavarian economy take off. (Many old-school Bavarians still call non-Bavarians Prussians, which is very weird since non-Bavarians don’t feel that way and many of them in fact aren’t.) Of course, that is very different from actual oppression, and I don’t want to compare the two.
Now Trachten has become a business, but it is also a local tradition that is very much alive. My wife has an original Dirndl, an American friend of mine got married to a Bavarian and they got married in Trachten.
I wasn’t aware of their marketing in that respect, but I do own their gear.
Hands down they make the best cycling gear: they make the most comfortable bib shorts, which work from -5 degrees to 40 degrees. They seem to be the only manufacturer that uses broad, soft, elastic straps rather than sharp, hard straps that dig into my skin. Their jerseys are amazing and also their softshell jacket is great (I have the Corsa). Plus, they are not afraid of bright, fun colors. They are pricy, but they are worth it if you can afford it. And they have the quality to back it up.
This is a great educational thread and kudos to all of you for navigating difficult topics, challenging conversations with respect. This kind of discourse is rare and exactly what is needed.
I think this is a super important point, and a reason why feelings can change over time. If systematic maltreatment still persists (e. g. that politicians decide that pipelines go through reservations in order to avoid cities and suburbs), I can see how this selective show of support can trigger anger and frustration.
I wrote costume simply because it is used as such.
I think that’s an important thing to educate people about. For the same reason you wouldn’t wear e. g. a cardinal’s outfit either — unless you wanted to offend. (Which is a different story since the Catholic church was/is almost always on the oppressor’s side.)
That’s very good to know. Makes me feel better about loving their products. At least one of their higher-ups is also on this forum.
Yeah, I remember how information about this started coming to light when I was living in Toronto (2013–2015). Again, no bit surprise that the Catholic Church was involved. In other parts of the world, their systematic cover-ups of e. g. child abuse came to light, too. (No offense against Catholics, the ones I know are appalled, too.)
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Yeah, I remember how information about this started coming to light when I was living in Toronto (2013–2015). Again, no bit surprise that the Catholic Church was involved. In other parts of the world, their systematic cover-ups of e. g. child abuse came to light, too. (No offense against Catholics, the ones I know are appalled, too.)
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This is a whole issue in itself. I was baptised a Catholic. My wife’s family is SUPER Catholic. My wife’s Great Uncle was a Priest in the Catholic church and was an incredible human being.
My Mother in Law on the other hand is Incredibly racist when it comes to Indigenous people. She feels the church did next to nothing wrong in Canada and feels that “INDIAN” problems are the result of “INDIANS” being lazy and useless and waste all of our tax dollars ( this is untrue as it is resource money that was agreed upon in treaties. In fact most has been stolen by the federal govt or has not been collected by the federal govt and has been gifted to large multinational corporations. This is also true of the rest of Canadians that have been ripped off of resource revenue through the same treaties.) If our resources had not been bribed and gifted away Canada would be one of the richest countries in the world.
My Mother in Law has no wish to educate herself and unwilling to listen to anything.
As for 7 Mesh in a lot of ways they are a shining example of how to do things right. They seems to run on a model that looks outside of themselves with a higher level of responsibility. I believe they operate on the belief that they should run on the premise of what is best for their employee’s, their community and then themselves.
