Disclosure 1: I don’t Zwift, 2: Don’t take anything below as a challenge 3. These things may have been said by others below, I’m just responding off the top of my head.
I’m not a math-ma-trician, but if your FTP (185) is nominally an hour of power, and you averaged under your FTP for 25 minutes, you underperformed on the whole (sure, Zdrafting can reduce some numbers, but everyone should expect to put out a higher 25 minute power avg than a 60 minute power avg). Why would you assume cheating if someone (or a bunch of someones) with the exact same physical parameters, performed ABOVE their FTP for 25 minutes?
Say they moved to the “front” by averaging at least 185, had a spike to 300-400, got a gap, and then averaged 180 while you sat on the front of the “tail gunners.”
I have no experience with a “real” power meter, but throwing this out there- I’m a cat 5 on the road (1 race, 7 years ago) and in cross (8+/- races over 4 years)… I’ve had one “good” cx result, but I’m a mid-to-rear-packer most days. My Kurt Kinetic inRide 20 minute test is well over 315w and FTP by w/kg is (currently) just above the “limits” for this race… but unless Zwift has an enormous Cda calculation for guys at 6-3, I’d very likely slaughter you in this [fake-flat] “race,” and have no shame in doing so.
Say I gained weight, lost some fitness and still had an FTP of 3 w/kg… We’re still talking about me being able to average over 300 watts (by my trainer’s calculation) for 20-25 minutes… and you averaged 180… Where’s the cheating there? You think your (assumed) smaller cda is worth 120 watts? Maybe but doubtful.
I’ve been doing Zwift races recently and registered through Zwiftpower etc and I find them really fun, but theres been a learning curve with them i.e. starting ridiculously hard from the gun. I only use them as a workout rather than trying to go up the rankings, but its nice if you pick up a podium/good placing etc.
My biggest bug bear with zwift racing is how much it seems to penalise heavy and tall riders; im 6ft 2 (188cm) and 99kg ish. Drafting in the game just doesnt work as far as I can tell, I’m either going straight through the pack or if I ease off a touch then im spat out the back, the middle ground doesnt exist so every race is essentially a TT to me. In rl I get so much more draft effect than the game gives, yet smaller riders seem to draft just fine going off the results where small guys have put out waaaay less power and beaten me with ease (flat courses even). With the TT races it doesnt seem so bad as nobody has the draft effect, just whatever guessed cda they attribute and then you see the smaller riders dropped out the back.
I’m on the Cat C/D boarder for 1 hour power, but easily Cat C for the 30 min races which always confuses me as they expect you to stay within ftp limits no matter the length of the race or your’e deemed a cheat. In my last race I got a “UPG” from zwiftpower which I assume means they want me to step up a category, which is fine by me, though I can barely hold a front D pack never mind a C pack… and if its hilly well I’m out the back no matter what watts I put out. Oddly the guy who won the same race in Cat D put out just over 3w/kg at 115kg but wasnt filtered from the lists, it was hilly and at that weight really shouldnt have been in the running.
I’m a taller rider too, 6’3", and I see a noticeable hit to my draft because of height. It effects draft in real life too, but it seems too negative in zwift. Would be interesting to know their cda calculations.
I too think staying in a group is too unrealistic too. Early on they had trouble getting peletons to form and stay together. So they implemented “stickiness”. I hate it because it requires a huge effort just to get out of someones draft and pass. Then there are times the group passes a slower rider and i get stuck on them and get left behind.
And then they implemented double draft for some races. I can’t remember the details of that, but why 2 implementations of draft. 1 has to be wrong and needs removed.
What’s zwift? I never heard of it. Nor thought it was imaginable someone would cheat. Especially online. Hmm. Sounds orthogonal to everything I know about people and online behavior!!!
I know every time I gain a pound or two I always update my TR settings.
I know all the group rides I’ve been on everyone has always had exceptionally good behavior. Ha.
Sounds like going in your expectations were a little off. Zwift with friends. Race to replace a hard work or variety… Isn’t it bad enough we are on trainers? Now you want me to pretend like I’m riding up a hill? Nah. Just Trainerroad for speed and fitness. Never disappoints come race/fondo season.
I’ve read that a few times before as I thought I was doing something wrong. But like where they say “We found a rider could stay in this 300-watt draft at 225 watts while on relatively flat ground.” doesn’t hold true in the slightest for me. It would be more like 310w and ill pull through to the front, 275w and I’m spat out the back and watching them pull away. Ill be putting out the same or more w/kg but still go backwards on occasion, with my weight being high that shouldnt be the case on flat roads.
Staying in the draft takes practise, and this is one of the gaming aspects to Zwift. It’s not like the draft in the real world, but once you’ve mastered it, the effect is pretty big.
Zwift is a video game at the end of the day, and many of the aspects of getting good at “playing Zwift” need experience. Despite what many may say, it’s not just about watts😊
Zwiftpower.com uses 95% of your best 20 minute power to calculate if you are over Cat limits. So it does not matter if the race is 25 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour, or 4 hours. Take your best 20 minute power divided by weight times 0.95. Note Zwiftpower.com does not take into account your normal Zwift riding so they only look at the best 20 minute power during an actual race (so far as I can tell)
If you see an UPG then you exceeded OR you were previously over limits 3 times with an average that puts you in C and once classified as a C rider and joined a D race you will always get a DQ or UPG.
The opposite is almost always true as far as weight goes. For categories based on w/kg heavy riders have an advantage. Think of it this way if you are near the top of your Cat you climb just as fast as a small rider since power to weight is the same. On the flats you have more raw power where raw power counts the most. Yes you dont have as good of a cda but the raw power outweighs this. Also worth noting is that in general bigger guys have a better sprint so taking a Cat win at the line is more likely from a bigger guy and I would bet 90% of races come down to a sprint from a select group. So climbing is even, big guy is better on flats, sprints, and descending.
I just checked the top 6 C Cat racers… 98kg, 85kg, 92kg, 85kg, 85kg, 86kg. Not exactly small climbing types. Top 6 in D Cat 96kg, 97kg, 78kg, 89kg, 112kg, 121kg. Same thing. There are no 55-70kg guys in the top of the C and D Cats. Bottom line is that those guys race a lot and win a lot as big guys in both C and D Cat. It is possible to win and it is not a disadvantage being big (not the case for A Cat).
It takes time to learn how to sit in and draft well in Zwift. When you ride outside the number of visual queues you have are many and online you simply dont have that. Watch you screen and the riders in front of you but also watch their power output on the right side. You may see their power number go before you visually notice it on screen. A very slight delay and creating a small gap has a big effect on stretching the rubber band. Practice practice practice. I used to surge off the front and then drop off the back my fair share as well and still do but much less than my first 8 or 10 races.
I agree with ucdengboss. I laugh a little when I hear larger (than me) riders complain. I’m 144lbs and finish races between 4.1 - 4.3.w/kg for anything under 1 hour. I get absolutely SMOKED on the hills. And it gets worse on the descents. It use to really frustrate me so much being a small lower end A class rider I took a long break from Zwift. I would get dropped so fast and then end up sweet spotting solo to the finish. I recently joined zwift again and have a much better attitude. I go into every race just to see how long I can hang on and when I get dropped I find a group with similar strength and we pull together, it’s actually fun again having no expectations. The truth is we nothing to lose. It’s a game… we can end it and go eat breakfast at anytime.
Re: Zwiftpower and “real” results, I just looked at my results from yesterday’s TsZ Stage 4 ride (group ride, not the race).
I was doing the stage just to check the box, but was actually doing a TR workout (Kaweah). Needless to say, 5’ @ 95w during recovery intervals doesn’t do much for your placing.
Anyway, I finished the stage somewhere around mid-pack…in the low 400’s and there were ~900 riders on the stage. Zwiftpower has me finishing the stage in the low-200’s.
I don’t see how anyone can view ZP results as “better” or more reflective of true results when it just erases half of the field simply because they aren’t registered on a site they likely have never heard of.
ZP is better because it has a form of enforcement that Zwift lacks. You are right though not nearly enough are registered. The real solution needs to come from Zwift. Zwift itself needs to have a Zwiftpower type of enforcement in game so we are not forced to go to a 3rd party site that many are not registered for. It really must be at the top of their list rather than expanding another patch or road onto a map. Fingers crossed.
On the good side ZP does have 100k registered users. And let’s not forget that you can always still race in game and ignore ZP if you dont mind the sandbaggers and those that accidentally register for the wrong Cat.
I.e. my ftp (1 hour power) comes out at 294, a smidge under 3w/kg if I use the ramp test, a little lower if I use the 20 minute test. But thats because im good at going hard and deep into the well over a shorter time. My genuine best 1 hour power recorded is 255, 2.5w/kg ish. Which puts me right at the top of a cat D.
So for a 10 mile race I can hold say 290w, which gives a 95% of 275w ish and makes me look like a clear Cat C and again is why I’ve now been asked to upgrade as I mainly do the shorter races, which is fine. But If I entered a 40k+ race then my average power would drop a lot and I’d be back looking like a Cat D. I just dont fit that 95% rule of thumb ftp which is used.
FWIW the rule applies to everyone so don’t see how it’s an issue. It’s not rare to put out more power in a 20min race than a 60min one regardless. Not many folks with a completely flat power duration curve from 20-60min.
Agreed 100%…this has been my position all along. ZP is, at best, a band-aid on a gushing wound. It is better than nothing, but it isn’t enough.
And while it is good that ZP has 100K users, how many total subscribers does Zwift have? You are probably talking about well less than 10% of the total subscriber base.
Another example from today…did a group ride (again using TR to control my power) so I entered the C category…ride description said C riders should finish the 60K ride in ~2:45. I was well off the back and I finished in 2:40.
The descriptions are just not even close and likely discouraging to people wanting to try racing.
