Explain to me: Why does the sweet spot base phase HV have a higher TSS than any of the build or specialty plans?

[bobmac]

@mattbly86

Now, how can these plans be so incredibly different in structure but classified as a simple “volume” step-up within the same category? Is the idea that once you surpass a weekly volume threshold of “X”, the most effective training structure is 100% sweet spot?

Should some version of bobmac’s hybrid of the two be petitioned into an official TR plan option for those seeking variety + volume?

@mattbly86 If you read my response to @kurt.braeckel you will get my view (guess?) as to why the MV and HV plans are different, or at least why HV doesn’t include threshold, VO2Max and neuromuscular work.

As to my “hybrid” approach: I’m guessing again, but I suspect that there are only so many plans that Coach Chad could put together without being unwieldy and confusing.

I’m probably not the typical user for a couple of reasons: 1) I’m coming in to TR with likely a higher base than most users (on pace to exceed 27,000 TSS this year despite a very light first 4 months of the year (and want to maintain that load), and 2) I have the software tools (TP Premium and WKO4) and knowledge to manage my load and fatigue (CTL, ATL, and TSB) and performance metrics. So I use (and love) the structure of Coach Chad’s workouts (and at this juncture, the SSB MV plan), but need to adjust them to meet my training philosophy (described early in response to @bbarrera ) and performance goals.

ps. I’m looking forward to the pain I will certainly encounter in threshold, VO2Max and neuromuscular sprints

[kurt.braeckel]

@bobmac

If I understand your statement, I have a different viewpoint. My interpretation of your statement would translate into something like: you could trade off 10 hours of sweet spot work for fewer (e.g. 8) hours of threshold work (“to achieve similar adaptations”).

I think that’s an oversimplification of my point. Certainly the different types of training work different energy systems. My overall point was that if you don’t have the time to put in 27000 TSS in a year or ride 14 hours a week, intensity is an adequate substitute provided you can recover from it. Simply riding threshold every day would still be tremendously beneficial until the rider either broke down from inability to recover, or simply plateaued. Of course that would apply to someone who tried to develop an aerobic base exclusively by riding 4 hours a week while training only VO2 and recovering. Instead, if you can only ride 4 hours a week, including some VO2 in with your sweet spot work will help close the volume gap, but of course it won’t close it entirely.

Otherwise, your points 1 and 2 are largely in line with my overarching thought: in the HV plans, you’re dedicating 10+ hours to the bike, so you can dial in a lot of SS work and achieve a very wide aerobic base without need for anything else, knowing that your build will address the other - more quickly trained - energy systems and muscle fibers. If you could dedicate, say, 14 hours, you could ride at even lower intensity to achieve the similar benefit.

I think your hybrid plan probably works well for you and a select number of other riders who are used to that kind of volume AND can add intensity to it. For the rest of us, that’s probably not going to either fit into our lives or lead to success because I would bet that the vast majority of riders on TR can’t handle 27,000 TSS in a year with four relatively easy months, and thus probably also wouldn’t realize much benefit from adding more intensity to a HV SSB plan without burning out relatively quickly.

[MI-XC]

@bobmac

I substitute most workouts with +1, +2,

@bobmac I’m looking to add some TSS to SSB 1 (possibly SSB 2 as well). What days did you, or do you recommend, adding a +1 or +2 to. For example, do you try to add it to you intervals days (Tues, Wed) or to your aerobic days? I’m only looking to maybe increase one workout per week to keep it in line with my TSS and progression. Thanks

[bobmac]

@MI-XC Earlier in the thread, I gave several examples of where I substituted with +1s, +2s etc. They don’t fall on specific days of the week, but they are always aligned with intervals. You can see the specific examples earlier, but for example, I will take a 3x20 sweet spot and make it a 4x20; or a 5x9 over/under and make it a 6x12 (ouch!). Now that I am in SSB MVII, the most recent workout I did I replaced Ebbetts (60min 4x8min SS w/5sec power tags) with Ebbetts+2 (90mins 6x8min SS and where I modified the power tags to include an additional 5sec ramps to the power tags to make sure I got the full 5 secs at the peak power).

Conversely, on endurance/easy days, I find them too hard, so I often lower the power levels from 75% to 60/65% (i.e. I live by the Joe Friel, Andy Coggan, Hunter Allen philosophy of going hard (!!!) on hard days and easy (!!!) on easy days). And to keep up my endurance base, I use long outdoor rides (anywhere from 2-8hours).

It’s important to note, however, to implement my approach you need to monitor your TSS, short term and long term training loads and fatigue. I use Training Peaks premium (and WK04) that provides the data I need to do so (TSS, ATL, CTL and TSB). As I came into TR with a higher fitness level than any of the base plans call for (CTL in the 90s, average weekly TSS in 600s), I need to make the interval sessions harder in order not to loose fitness.

For you, without these analytic tools, you need to go by feel (sort of like RPE). When you feel strong and rested, you could increase the intensity, the duration or # of intervals being careful that you aren’t changing the goal of the workout (e.g. making an SS workout into a VO2Max workout or a VO2Max into a neuromuscular one). And when you need to lighten the load (e.g. 75% endurance to 60%) you can do so as well.

btw: TSS progression is called ramp rate. There are guidelines based on experience level and age, but generally 5%/week for 2 of a 3week cycle (or 3 of a 4 week cycle) is good during the base and build phases. For most TR users, you don’t need to think/worry about this because the plans have this built in, including the proper recovery.

[MI-XC]

Thanks. I’m doing Traditional Base, Build, SSB 1 &2, Build, then Specialty leading to an A race in September. Looking at my calendar I have a dip in TSS and overall workout efforts coming off my first build going into SSB1.

So, I just wanted/needed a little more in SSB1 (possibly SSB2) because I’ll be coming in with plenty of fitness. SSB1 is rather easy coming off General Build MV. Also, I’ll start racing in the middle of SSB2 (B+ priority races) so wanted a lttle more. Nothing too drastic in SSB, just maybe +1 or +2 one of the interval days once per week.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

@MI-XC

Looking at my calendar I have a dip in TSS and overall workout efforts coming off my first build going into SSB1.

Same problem. I’ll be coming out of an ~850 TSS HVBuild into a ~700 TSS HVBase.
I was adding an extra 200 TSS in Build (plan calls for a high of 650) so will I have to add an extra 200-300 TSS in the upcoming Base?

Not sure I can handle 1,000 TSS/week (850 required daily nappage). Maybe if I was unemployed. But then how would I afford all the food?

[ErickVH]

I’m going from MV build to MV base. I’m just viewing it as a concession to keep from burning out. You can’t keep ramping volume and intensity forever and have to step back periodically. The base should be at a higher FTP anyways so it should be productive in cementing that new level of fitness.

[MI-XC]

@ErickVH

You can’t keep ramping volume and intensity forever and have to step back periodically.

I agree, it’s just SSB1 MV is a BIG step back from General Build MV. I’d be going from 544 TSS at the end of Build to 5 weeks of 300-400 TSS of sweet spot base. I’m looking to just bump that SSB1 TSS to mid 400s, which is still a significant drop in both intensity, duration and TSS. However, a slight bump at SSB1 allows for a more smooth transition. It least that’s my thinking.

[trpnhntr]

@Captain_Doughnutman

I’ll be coming out of an ~850 TSS HVBuild into a ~700 TSS HVBase.
I was adding an extra 200 TSS in Build (plan calls for a high of 650) so will I have to add an extra 200-300 TSS in the upcoming Base?

Wow!

If you can handle 850 TSS in Build then you could definitely handle 900-950 of base TSS. I’m not sure it is necessary, but your body can likely handle it.

I start to break down at 800 TSS in Base and 700 TSS in Build - those are some impressive numbers.

That said - I’d wait and see how your body handles that 850 TSS build before committing to anything else - that’s a huge number and if you’re doing the HV Build plan and adding in intensity and volume without breaking down then you may well be able to add even more sweet spot to SSB HV

[Captain_Doughnutman]

It’s not that impressive!

In December I went from 500 to 850 TSS.
I was doing double days the first 3 weeks (e.g. Dans) and then my FTP jumped up for some weird reason.
Didn’t retest because a ramp didn’t fit into my schedule, I just bumped everything up 5%.

I just know my body responds well to really heavy loads AND corresponding rest.
For instance, SPBHV has 4 hard days a week, I’m shortening the phase by 2 weeks by doing 5/week.
I was off work the last 2 weeks of Dec so decided to really go for it – lots of riding and lots of napping:

A week of R&R next week then back to SSBHV…which already does 5/week so I’m looking at ways to add some SS TSS. I guess just adding more time is really the only way, boosting intensity will take me out of the zone.

[Tanner1280]

Really curious to see where this lands you…

I just finished HV Build with weeks of 670, 690, and 750 TSS leading into the rest week and I’m circling back to base building myself with an eye towards more volume. I’ve done 1000TSS in blocks in the past so the temptation to pile on is there…

Rather than go SSBHV I’m planning on doing more Z2 work, one solid SS workout and one VO2 workout or training race of ~1 hr each week. Six days on the bike with five days and a bit less intensity every third (rest) week.

I’m doing this to avoid crossing the line given that I’m coming off the couch after years off the bike and have gone from mid 200w to 315w very quickly. At about 72kg I can reasonably assume I’ll be seeing diminishing returns very soon and the burnout risk will increase and it’s very early season.

Keep us posted!

[Captain_Doughnutman]

Sounds like we are birds of a feather (Dodos?).

I also hit up TR after years of just easy commuting and nonsense miles.
Have also gone from mid-200w to 305w quickly…I see now where my 315 went!

I forgot that I was once in search of more SS TSS. From my other ‘Volume’ thread you’ll know that I’ve dialed that down to more Z2 work, probably 2-3hrs/week in addition to SSBHV, for the same reasons you listed – pre-season burnout.

That said, the HV block in Dec really ramped up my fitness, so I’ll have a nice base on which to build my second phase of training.

Maybe I’ll start a blog or 'tube channel…

[Tanner1280]

Maybe not dodos, but rather soon to be extinct?

This should make for an interesting comparison since I’ll only be doing just one SS session per week and one other intense session, otherwise all Z2. Almost polarized but not in a strict sense.

Hopefully I can squeeze better than 6% more out of my ramp test before I get started;)…