I found after 12 weeks of nothing but SSB, getting into VO2max was a lot harder than I expected. My body hadn’t hit those targets in quite away and just wasn’t used to it. I did what I could and they eventually started to get slightly better. It’s definitely just one of those things that needs to be training and if you’re not training it it seems to go away quick.
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I suffer from exactly the same issue - and i feel many do on here - vo2 and intervals above threshold are so very difficult / nigh on impossible for me at times!
Best bet is just to accept the fact and reduce workout intensity and know that 114% vs 120% is very much still the same adaptation.
Yday i adopted a good strategy for supra-threshold reps — starting each interval at 106% and then nudging up throughout … i found this way far more doable and ended up around 107% on average but it felt far easier than just trying to hit 108% from the start - might be worth a try ?
either way you are not alone!!
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People need to get over the idea that not hitting every target as specified in a workout is a “failure” and some sort of bad thing. Sure, there are situations where not hitting targets or completing a workout as specified is bad.
But in reality, almost all the time, workout targets are fuzzy and individual and hitting exactly x for y minutes is not actually the goal. Rather the goal is to get into a zone and to stay there for the allotted time AND everyone’s zone range (and it is a range, not fixed definite integer) is going to be different.
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Boom. All this.
Too much tech and data is making us lose sight of the basics of training – ride more, ride harder.
How the F do you think the old skoolies got so fast for the last 100 years w/o staring at a power meter all day long?
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And boom all this.
Training is a spectrum. People thinking adaptation starts and stops right “here” gets hard to read. But, in their defense, I couldn’t imagine picking up a bike for the first time in 2019? Holy ****! So much junk to filter out it’s no wonder people get so confused. It’s almost like they are afraid to pedal for fear of doing something wrong.
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Yup. It’s like we’ve all been infected by the marginal gains tapeworm and it’s causing severe analysis paralysis. I’m off by 2%!!! 
(yeah I’m totally guilty of this…so what of it?!? 
)
Want to get better at VO2 stuff?
- remove the power meter from your bike.
- go ride as hard as you can for 4 minutes. Rest for 4 minutes. Repeat 4 times in a row.
- do this 2-3 times a week for 3 weeks and you’ll be flying.
Can’t make 4 minutes? Dial it down until you can. These are not sprints.
Want to know when you’re “in the zone”? You can’t talk and you’re breathing really hard.
(And you’ll entertain NO thoughts of even attempting a 5th minute.)
This is all about you and your body, not what some cookie cutter computer workout says you should do.
No power meter required. No % or equations. Just hard riding. 
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I think this a bit individual tbh. I find 120% in erg mode one of the few ways I can really get a good vo2 max workout outside of a race. Cognitive load at a minimum.
In contrast, I’ve done loads hill climb repeats that hurt but I never hit quite the same numbers. 30/60 second efforts are fine out on the road, but I find vo2 very very hard to judge.
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You can still ride an indoor trainer w/o a power meter.
How do you think racers trained their VO2max in the many decades before bike computers?
Yes, of course it’s individual. That’s why I said “This is all about you and your body…”.
Seems like the OP et al are forgetting to pay attention to their own selves in lieu of a general average guideline. If the computer says do 120% but you can only reach 116% then so be it. The instructions are general, your efforts are specific.
It’s important to know your personal rate of perceived effort. Go ride powerless, it’s both enlightening and liberating. You then have another tool in your quiver in which to evaluate your performances.
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This is a whole other discussion / can of worms - we don’t know how a prime (and clean) Johan Museeuw on 2019 equipment would fare against Peter Sagan. I think Sagan would beat him, and more accurate and focused training in numerous ways would be a big reason why.
Yes, that part I’m with you 100 (116?) percent.
I find riding powerless fine in the company of others, but tricky training anything above Z3 on my own.
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@martinheadon I think @Captain_Doughnutman and I are using dumb trainers with PM’s so the difference in (RPE and maybe how you complete intervals) compared to ERG is a bit of a different animal. I know I have to keep that in mind reading all these threads.
Anyone in general, learning how to be the most effective at 4x2’s, 4x4’s, 4x8’s etc…on the bike, dumb trainer or smart trainer is a learning curve and slightly different for each. At least for me this is true. Meaning, while the power may vary the HR time in zone is the same. If you don’t use a HR monitor this is one reason to check it out. Certainly don’t need one but, it can give you some really good insight on what’s going on under the power.
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I train with power, and ride without looking at it except on time trial where I use it to be sure and not go out and start too hard.
The key take-away about vo2max intervals is that there is a range of power that elicits a state where your body is using max oxygen. That range is 106-120% of ftp (mlss).
What that means - if the intervals are 120% you can dial back intensity on TR app to 88% (120% * 88% = 105.6%). My rule of thumb for 120% intervals is dialing back to 90%.
Pulling up general build week 5 and 6 the vo2max intervals are Dade+4 and Matthes+4 are at 115%, so the most you can dial back intensity on TR app is 92% (115% * 92% = 105.8%).
If you have some math skills its easy to do those calcs off the bike. The problem is doing them on the bike, I’ve got an engineering degree and took 4 years of college math and must stop the workout and do the calc if it isn’t 120%. On the other hand my wife wouldn’t have a clue where to start, so it would be awesome if TR app would tell me on Dade+4 that dropping to 90% is turning the workout into upper threshold work and its no longer vo2max. I’d want the app to stop me at 92%.
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VO2max workouts are super hard. Some things that have helped me and may help others:
1). Are you using ERG mode? Stop doing that.
2). On the podcast, Coach Chad said to keep in mind the goals of the workout. For VO2max workouts, the goal (to paraphrase) is to make your body use a s-ton of oxygen.
You will accomplish this by keeping your power in the VO2max range (106-121%). Ive done Baird+2 a bunch of times and at first, I just try to keep the power in that range. Once I get a little better, I’ll aim for something in the middle of the range. If i’m really feeling good, I’ll aim for 120%.
It doesn’t really matter if you are a little below the 120% target. As long as you are working hard with the power in that range, you are using a s-ton of oxygen, you are accomplishing the goal of the workout, and you will improve.
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A quote from Lionel Sanders, a world class triathlete, on VO2max workouts (emphasis mine):
The VO2MAX intervals aren’t nearly as “in your face” as the ANAEROBIC CAPACITY intervals, but in my opinion, they are the most painful of them all. These are the ones where you can feel your fingertips pulsating at the end, or where you feel really dizzy or light headed afterwards. In fact, one time I felt so saturated with what I would presume to be lactic acid, that I had to have a cold shower afterwards to begin feeling normal again.
Doesn’t matter if your FTP is 200 or 400, these babies are rough for everyone.
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Have you tried Zwift instead?
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Good. You found a limiter.
A lot of suggestions above are good and more detailed but I’ll simplify.
Find a v02 workout with low time in v02 and high recovery. Then keep adding time at v02 and reducing recovery in between. Do this with variants or different workouts.
You need to just go back a few weeks and workthis area more.
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Agree completely. Focus on doing the workout with some modification so that you can do it. If you redo the same workout the next week I wouldnt be surprised you could do it with less of a modifier. The aim is to improve. We dont all train and improve at the same rate.
Thanks a million for all the replays. It has really helped to get my head back in it again.
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This is the limitation of TrainerRoad. it’s impossible to prescribe VO2 intervals as a % of FTP that fits all. Especially conpounded by the fact that most likely (even using the ramp test) most people’s FTP will be overstated…you don’t think so…go and ride for as long as you can at your stated FTP and see how long you can go, Then some people’s actual FTP may be 85% of VO2 max, some will be 87%, some 80% etc etc. So without knowing your VO2 max, without having a truly representative threshold number it is highly likely that a lot of people will not be able to complete these workouts at the prescribed intensity.
Yes, you can tweak the intensity, but what most people are paying TR for is a comprehensive training platform that they don’t have to be mess around with.
I use WKO4 which tells me where I should be working at for certain interval durations and I tweak the intervals accordingly. More and more software platforms are moving to individualisation…Sufferfest, Xert, Perf Pro. TR will have to move towards this area…or they are in real danger of being left behind.
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Anybody know how to get that information out of GoldenCheetah if at all?
If most TR users are paying for a “comprehensive platform that they don’t have to mess around with” then they are mistakingly using the TR product. TR never claims that and clearly states as much in their podcasts and articles that is not the case. TR relies on educating their users on how to individualize their TR training based on factors specific to themselves and their lives.
If you blindly follow TR plans, no matter what, without analyzing your workout performance, adjusting intensity when needed and listening to your body regarding nutrition, fatigue, stress and recovery; you are doing yourself and your training a disservice. Even the best AI will not be able to eliminate the multitude of factors that make getting the most out of your training, especially over the long term.
EDIT: what @STP said below 
, you’ll still need to do a little self coaching when using TR, or get yourself a coach to do it for you.
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