Gravel bike tire clearance (OPEN)

[DaveWh]

@chrisb82

On the other hand, they make it tough to maneuver on narrow singletrack or technical rocky gravel.

I think you and a few others are way overemphasizing the impact of tire size on handling of a properly designed gravel bike.

A gravel bike is designed to be ridden on gravel roads 99%+ of the time. Single track is an edge case and if you are going to be riding singletrack, other than on the smoothest of smooth single track, a gravel bike is the wrong tool for the job (I know from experience riding my Diverge; singletrack is painful on that bike with any sized tire).

Similarly, on technical rocky gravel, this is an edge case where you are riding so slow that +/- 5mm of tire size does not matter when it comes to handling. The bike is just not suited to it and any tire size is going to be painful. If anything, bigger tires help because they can absorb the rocks better.

Or maybe I’m just not sensitive to these small changes. If I put 47mm tires on my Diverge, I’d be able to ride everything I do today just as well as I do with 38s.

[chrisb82]

Maybe I should have said “less maneuverable” rather than “tougher”. I disagree with your first statement, gravel bikes are designed for a number of different cases and there are many different geometries out there, but I do agree with your assessment of how your Diverge handles because it is designed around a tire size in between the two ranges you are using it for. Makes total sense.

However, if you had a frame that was designed around a 700x32 or 650b/50mm tire size (i.e. 345mm wheel radius) then it would feel very strange with 700x45, even if they fit. I have witnessed this personally on multiple frames. Also, this is consistent with Dan’s Slowtwitch article linked above.

Likewise, if you run 700x28’s on a frame that is designed for larger tires, it will feel very strange. I have also witnessed this on riding a Canyon Grizl with smaller tires. That bike is specifically marketed saying they do not recommend running it with 650b wheels, and you have to draw the conclusion that is because it will handle differently than designed, since the tires will easily fit.

[OreoCookie]

@DaveWh

A gravel bike is designed to be ridden on gravel roads 99%+ of the time.

I disagree: gravel bikes form a spectrum and one very common version of a good gravel bike is a quiver killer. Examples are the aforementioned Open UP(PER), the Open WI.DE, Moot’s Routt, Vielo’s V+1, 3T’s various incarnations of the Exploro and many more. All of them are designed to take 700c and 650b wheels: once your tire width (hence, outer tire radius) exceeds a certain threshold, you use a smaller wheel to keep the geometry approximately the same. Some bikes like Cervelo’s Aspero have a flip chip with which you can tweak the geometry.

Like I wrote above, most people I know who have a gravel bike need to spend 10s of km on the road to get to gravel. And sometimes all they want is to cross forest roads and the like, roads where I have to turn around on my aero road bike.

Edit: I don’t claim the use case I see locally translates to all locales, it clearly does not. However, my point is that the quiver killer approach to gravel bikes is a common and popular recipe. They are much more versatile than an Evil Chamois Hagar. The latter is by no means a bad bike, but it is more specialized, i. e. much better at the things it was designed for, but also much worse at things that are farther out of its wheelhouse.

Personally, I am super excited by the gravel bike market. Clearly, it is the slice of the bike industry that sees the most innovation. There are no stupid UCI rules (yet?) that e. g. artificially limit your tire choice. And at least as far as racing is concerned, you have everything, in some races the best riders use road bikes with slick tires, with others gravel bikes with 1x mullet setups. I love that!

@DaveWh

I think you and a few others are way overemphasizing the impact of tire size on handling of a properly designed gravel bike.

Two things here: some would say that using the correct wheel diameter depending on your tire width is part of the design. And I think some people can tell, especially if you want a frame that works for 28–30 mm road tires as well as 2.1" mountain bike tires.

@chrisb82

Maybe I should have said “less maneuverable” rather than “tougher”.

Agreed. Even more generally, though, sometimes it is a question of personal taste what you want: do you want a bike that feels like a road bike on the road? Do you want faster, twitchier handling or do you prefer a more stable stance?

Case in point: before I got my aero road bike, I had an endurance road bike. It was my first road bike in 15 years, and I have a MTB background. On paper, an endurance road bike makes complete sense. But I hated the way the bike handled with a passion, it was slow, I couldn’t carve corners, etc. The same is true for gravel bikes: what you prefer is to a degree a matter of taste. Some people find being underbiked pleasurable and fun. Others want something more stable and/or relaxed. There is no single right answer, just a lot of right answers

[wake]

This is a great discussion. Just wanted to add a couple of relevant comments:

1. Wider tires make trails much easier. I’ve ridden 2.3 inch slicks on a ride with a guy who’s a much better bike handler than me. He was on 28mm knobbies and a cross bike. The trail was generally class III gravel, and I was easily able to ride more of the trail than he was.
2. That said, I believe that bikes can be “out of balance”. I don’t like riding 2.3 inch slicks with drop bars - the tires can handle much tougher trails than I’m comfortable on with the bars. For example, I wouldn’t want to run a suspension fork with drop bars - the kinds of trails that I want a suspension fork for are the kinds of trails I want flat bars for too. And if I want a suspension fork, I also want knobby tires.

My 2c…

[DaveWh]

@OreoCookie

Like I wrote above, most people I know who have a gravel bike need to spend 10s of km on the road to get to gravel

I should have clarified my comment about 99% applying to “no rougher than gravel” I.e. not singletrack or rocky jeep trail.

Agree completely that most gravel bikes perform just fine on the road (for casual road riding). I don’t even bother anymore to take my road bike off the trainer for road rides. I just ride my gravel bike.

[DaveWh]

@chrisb82

if you had a frame that was designed around a 700x32 or 650b/50mm tire size (i.e. 345mm wheel radius) then it would feel very strange with 700x45

I could see this being true - but the OP is looking for a gravel bike designed for big tires. Bikes like the Diverge, new Checkpoint, Revolt, etc. would do just fine in the range from high 30s to high 40s.

I have Pathfinder Pro 38s on my Diverge, and those tires deliver a great blend of performance on road and gravel. And if I want to put on 47s or even 50s for a bike packing trip, I’d bet the bike would handle just fine also.

Maybe I’m not sensitive to small changes like this. I ride a mix of road, gravel, MTB and snow on tires ranging from 32mm to 5”, so I’ve gotten used to a bunch of different bike geometries and surfaces.

[chrisb82]

Yes, I also agree with the bikes you list and the Canyon Grizl, Cannondale Topstone and also many titanium bikes such as the Lynskey GR bikes should all be appropriate for large 700c tires.

[SirDAN]

I went from a Silverback Siablo size L (700x47mm (max)) which in hindsight felt like an oil tanker to a Lauf Seigla Rigid Race M (700x57mm (max)) which I feel I could throw around the local crit course being so nimble.

I currently rotate between 3 wheel sets from 42/45/50mm tyres.

I have no complaints, rides like a dream.

[mountainrunner]

This is a great thread. The OP (@Jkauffman) is looking at the OPEN UP and what followed were some great comments and discussion. The OPEN bikes are awesome, and I hope to get a MI.ND next year. That said, I think the 3T Exploro hasn’t gotten enough attention here. Now, I’m biased having put 8k miles on it with between 300,000’ - 400,000’ of climbing a year since I got in Nov 2018. It is, by the designer’s own words, a road bike that does gravel and it feels great for all day and aggressive adventures, and all day aggressive adventures.

On the tires, I will add to @oreocookie’s recommendation of the WTB Byway to consider the WTB Venture, which has a bit more traction. I switched to the Ventures because I found I needed that bit more on certain terrain and conditions. Now, I’ve written the Byways in inches of snow with the effect I swore the side knobbies were bigger than they are. I’ve now on Rene Hearse Juniper Ridge knobbies that seem good, but I think in dry and dusty, I’ll revert to Ventures.

That said, I’m on 650b and use the WTBs in 47 while the RH is 48. Also, last year, I went mullet, which was great for chunky, steep (18-25%) long climbs.

Is this bike, as configured, a rocket on pavement? Not at all. I’d definitely put on skinnier tires and my gearing, with a 42 up front and 10x52, means I can run out of gears. But pavement is merely a transitory state to the next trail, so I don’t swap rubber. And, I like the 47s to take all terrain, roots, rocks, passing MTBs on rocky & rooty climbs (though they then blow on rocky & rooty downward slopes by me w/ the cheating shocks :D)

[FergusYL]

Gotta say, that’s some beautiful riding. And yeah, it’s an interesting thread - also because it shows how varied the expectations of terrain are. Ours is pretty similar to the pics above, even if our mountains aren’t nearly as majestic. I’d bet yours also gets similarly sloppy during mud season, when any dirt road could potentially be a quagmire through mid-May. In a lot of places around here (around here being most of northern New England), you can ride out your front door and go all day with maybe half a mile of pavement total connecting dirt roads and trails, so speed on pavement is barely a concern.

[wake]

@redlude97

But why…

We thought it was going to be easy - simple packed dirt. We didn’t know the route in advance…

[mountainrunner]

@FergusYL

I’d bet yours also gets similarly sloppy during mud season, when any dirt road could potentially be a quagmire through mid-May.

Fortunately, for the most part, no. There are trails that get sloppy & slippery, becoming slides, but fortunately, those are easily avoided, and “replaced” or bypassed if necessary. The issue here, at least for me, is when it’s wet, rocks and roots are super slick. For me, it’s this that eliminates tracks when it rains. Otherwise, it’s generally pretty grainy. There will be mud, I will get caked, but it’s a thin layer and not clay.

Good times are to be had…

The WTB Ventures are mounted for both pics above. They’re versatile for the terrain and conditions I ride. Maybe different tires would be for slick rocks and roots, but I fear I’d be sacrificing the otherwise all-around abilities of the minimal though ‘there’ tread.

The last pic in the post above, w/ the bike computer saying ‘Make a U turn’ (a waypoint was off the trail, I wasn’t off the trail), was the top of a 4.2mi 12.5% climb of actual gravel. Here’s a pic near the summit. If you look closely near the left edge on the descending trail that I just ascended, you’ll see a speck. That’s a cyclist headed down the hill (the more frequently chosen direction for this route).

@FergusYL

In a lot of places around here (around here being most of northern New England), you can ride out your front door and go all day with maybe half a mile of pavement total connecting dirt roads and trails, so speed on pavement is barely a concern.

Great to hear as I’ll be moving there this coming summer and leaving all of this beauty. All but one of the pictures in this and the prior post were on rides out the door. The one with the signpost was a train ride away (technically two trains). The cloud obscure it, the in the mountain in the wisp of cloud is the Matterhorn. And the one below with a traffic jam was also not out the door, but a drive (it’s very near the Dolomites… I passed through the iconic scene of the Dolomites earlier in this ride). I haven’t done my research on riding in New England, but I’m guessing it’ll be different.

[FergusYL]

You’re definitely making a good case for going with Ventures over Ramblers. Where in New England are you headed? And for reference, this is my road in Vermont this past April. Hello, mud season!

[wake]

It was a cross bike. Maybe he had 32mm tires? In any case, the bike was designed for narrow knobbies…

[chrisb82]

As with all your pictures, I’m jealous you get to ride in Switzerland. My wife and I are finally planning a trip there probably late summer/early fall next year, although it’s unlikely I’ll be bringing a bike.

[mountainrunner]

@FergusYL

Where in New England are you headed?

Boston.

@chrisb82

As with all your pictures, I’m jealous you get to ride in Switzerland. My wife and I are finally planning a trip there probably late summer/early fall next year, although it’s unlikely I’ll be bringing a bike.

I am lucky and stopped doing tri’s to focus more on riding these trails and roads, and not in aero. There are plenty of places to rent a bike, especially in and near places with good road and trail options. Also, ebikes are hugely popular here.

It’s not a terrible place to ride…

[OreoCookie]

The mountains are gorgeous! And the Exploro is a great bike, you can tell that it is a cousin of the UP(PER). In my mind, the Exploro and the UP ignited the cambric explosion of modern gravel bikes.

I’m on a Vroomen bike, too, I have 3T’s Strada. I wish I could have tried the Exploro with faster rubber. I could only take it for a spin (paved) with 2.1 mountain bike tires. Perhaps I would have gone for an Exploro.

I wasn’t aware of WTB’s Venture, they look like a great choice for the terrain you ride, and should be on the list of quality, wide gravel tires.

PS In case you do get the Open MI.ND, please share your impressions here.
PPS Keep the bike picture porn coming! Every single one of these pictures makes me want to ride.

[chrisb82]

I’m also running the 650bx47 Ventures on my Aspero 650b set for a while now. I like them off road, they are definitely slow on pavement.

I actually want to try a 50-51mm tire and see how that goes. Our gravel here is pretty rough for the most part.

[chrisb82]

That is one tire I’d like to try. The other is the Schwalbe G One Speed in 650x50

[OreoCookie]

@redlude97

Have you tried a 48mm slick?

Schwalbe makes a version called G-One RS, which has a file tread pattern in the middle and some knobs and lugs on the edge. Ben Delaney put them in the #1 spot of his most favorite gravel tires.