Hi
I did the same. It’s what Training Peaks suggested.
I thought that whilst all zones elicit some degree of the same adaptions, different zones elicit different amounts of the same adaptions.
So whilst you would get cappilerisation at higher heart rates, it would not be as effective as at lower heart rates where more oxygen is being used.
I may be wrong but thought that was the case?
Great results!
Last year I went quickly into SS work but my heart rate was high doing steady intervals.
When it came to Sustained Power, my heart rate was already near max efforts so any longer efforts or over under just blew me up.
I was thinking 12 weeks of base work and then into SS work to see if I fair better this year.
I guess part of the fun is learning about yourself and what works for you 
This makes a lot of sense to me.
On a two hour Z2 ride in order to keep my heart rate constant I do need to slowly lower the watts right now. I will look to see if I can maintain the same watts for the same heart rate as this 12 week block ticks by but what you say resonates a lot.
The other benefit of this block for me is that I have upped my weekly cycle hours from 7 to 10 and my legs do get tired with the increased volume at the moment. So for recovery purposes I don’t think I could work at a higher intensity without fatigue setting in.
Maybe by the end of this block my cardio system will have adapted and my legs will have acclimatised to the increased volume.
Thanks for your tips and will use those as I go
I’m the opposite of the OP - doing something like Baxter which is 75mins in power Z2, my HR struggles to get out of HR Z1. OK, not struggles but the last time I did Baxter was a couple of days after a Ramp Test where I bumped my FTP by 3% and had just 2m30s in Z2. A workout like Bald Knob is firmly in HR Z1 without even worrying the top end of that range. I am a diesel though, in fact I make most diesels look like nitrous powered dragsters 
Once I get to threshold then my HR shoots up and more closely matches the Power zones.
Ultimately your HR response is individual and could be a zone above or below the relevant power zone.
Thanks your HRmax is much higher than mine, so our HR zones look similar on a relative basis (because yours are higher).
I’ve read enough of Seiler to know that HR can be used to estimate a threshold (e.g. lower ventilatory and lactate thresholds) where increases in HR can be considered a proxy for increases in stress in at least the autonomic nervous system (his paper from 2007?). Seiler also talks about hormonal stress, but can’t recall if this is more related to threshold vs VO2 intervals. It is part of Seiler’s training polarized discussions. Playing around a bit with polarized myself last year - I didn’t reach any conclusions on the stress aspect. But I didn’t really play around much with polarized as the harder vo2 sessions didn’t go well. I really needed a lot more “base” fitness and more importantly durability before tackling harder vo2 intervals.
However like I said above a lot of really good things happen when I do around 60-80% zone2 work. More from power production standpoint, but a side benefit has been a reduction in HR during zone2 power workouts.
Exactly! I’ve only logged 5 years of training, and have found a base period of 20+ weeks before doing a build has given better results. But everyone is different!
Be patient!
I have the same issue. Long Z2 rides based on power end up with HR being almost entirely at a zone 1 HR.
I have only found as I ride more and essentially get fitter I do find my heart rates drop over time. Intervals.icu had an interesting feature enabling the ability to match you heart rate and power output to see the shift over time.
I do think at times we overthink all of this information.
@Day I’m reading a white paper case study right now detailing how the geekiest of training science geeks would set up a year long training plan for a masters athlete. It’s a pretty incredible paper…I’ll post about it later this week. You should check out that discussion…not necessarily as something to copy but just to give yourself some guidelines to plan your training.
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Interesting topic. I’m doing 4-6h/wk of Lento in the trainer (among other things). The Coggan levels (power, HR) match almost perfectly for me.
However, the question still remains if a better use of my time would be to be at the top of Seiler Zone 1, that in my case would be:
That said, I don’t think I can do 2h at 191w and have my avg HR be 143, given that I’m doing 2h at 170w with an avg HR of 140. Tomorrow I will play with 2h at 180w and see where the HR lands.
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once aerobic endurance is established, I drop the HR cap except when doing easy aerobic work on Wednesday. That is because Tue/Thur are cycling+strength days and very hard. I also did HR cap during the FasCat polarized sweet spot 4 stock plan - in fact they dropped TSS target to force you to think about really being disciplined on low-intensity the day before hard full-gas vo2max intervals.
my take:
- focus on HR target after a season break (2-3 months of strength work) until aerobic endurance reestablished (for me that was 2 full months Sept/Oct 2020!)
- power targets in general
- use HR cap to really keep easy days easy during a true polarized block
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I don’t think anyone really knows the true relationship between training intensity and adaptation, at least not once you factor volume into the mix. At best all there is is informed speculation.
Rather than worrying about this question, I would focus on the relationship with performance, which is far easier to measure, especially for the individual athlete.
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I throw a plain simple assumption in the ring:
Your FTP is set too high.
Your FTP tests are flawed by your relative anaerobic strength.
Reduce FTP by 2-3%.
Use old FTP numbers for VO2max work.
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I agree, anaerobically gifted athletes can skew FTP high on step test.
This is what I was trying to explain in earlier post. Good stuff. This is why sufferfest 4DP is useful.
I think working the top of Seiler Zone1 is good time spent if you’re doing long steady state type base work. If you can’t sustain that for 2h then do over-unders around 191w and build up to it. So maybe your over-under is 191w / 175w.
Otherwise, just do it and let your HR creep. Over several workouts, assuming consistency and good recovery, your HR will stabilize.
Or…whether sweet spot is better when you only have 2hr.
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Never done 4DP, really comes down to some basic principles that a motivated self-coached athlete can learn and follow. I really like WKO5 but you don’t need any fancy analysis tools or test protocols.
@Brennus Fab, I will wait and have a look at that. A guide is always interesting as you pick up tip and ideas of how more experienced people lay out a longer term profile.
At the end of the day, I’m in no hurry to get fitter. I know it takes time and commitment so I will keep experimenting and see where I end up…as long as it’s a little faster this time next year lol
I definitely think the ramp test is generous to my ability.
I had a proper ramp test done years and years ago by a professional physiologist and he said something like, ‘Impressive anaerobic ability…pity your so poor on your aerobic capacity’ lol.
I felt good about myself until he finished his sentence!
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So you already had the answer at your hands ;).
You could try Sufferfest Haf Monty ramp test, it has a HR controlled tempo part after the ramp that will influence the result. Gave me 2% lower number than 75% of best minute of the ramp (which TR would have given me). I even reduced FTP further down (since I already had my lesson on burning out on a too high set FTP).
It just finds your 5sec, 1min, 5min and FTP power and then sets up your training intervals appropriately vs basing all intervals off of only FTP.
Yes. I’m familiar with the concept, but use WKO5 to handle that for me.
Sounds like you drank the koolaid.
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