Is TrainerRoad not working for me?

[G650]

@kevshoes

. After talking with friends who are coaches and fast riders, venturing to other cycling forums, and even former TR employees though, they all to a person, say the same thing.

Yep. I think I started on TR in 2014 (Honestly been so long I can’t remember), and for years I would blow up in build like clockwork. Never did anymore than what the plan called for, it was my only riding at the time. I eventually just gave up and learned that many, many others shared that experience.

I still subscribed simply because I loved the workout player, then they added calendar etc… But I’ve just never found any utility in the TR plans. They do look like they have gotten much better though fwiw

[kevshoes]

Or that they are “misrepresenting TR.”

[Power13]

@kevshoes

I could not find/remember an instance where they’ve really said, “you need to swap some of our workouts for an easier ride sometimes.”

I’m honestly not certain what feeds you’ve followed or what you were listening to, but TR has always said this, as well as emphasizing that you should listen to your body.

[Power13]

@Abe_Froman

But the messaging from the company as to how it should be used is very poor. Worse, they get very defensive about it, to the point of singling out individual users and calling them out publicly for not using their platform properly.

This is nonsense. Whenever they have pointed out where individuals are making mistakes with the platform, they have illustrated with clear examples what those mistakes were. And it isn’t like they do it out of nowhere….it happens when users are asking for feedback on their situation.

[kevshoes]

From their blog (the stress is my own edit):

"TrainerRoad’s Adaptive Training feature, your plan will adjust to the pace of your progress as you work your way through it. Whether you have a breakthrough ride or need to take time off due to life events, your plan will ALWAYS be the right one for your individual needs. "

Cycling Training Plan for Beginners: How to Start Training for New Cyclists -...

[Power13]

Is it your position that the one post there is that totality of their training protocol?

[Abe_Froman]

The statement is comprehensive by trainerroad. It leaves no room for a reasonable person to assume that statement is contradicted elsewhere by advice from the company.

[kevshoes]

I can find other similar instances if I felt so inclined. I’ve got better things to do than go through almost a decade worth of content for you. If you can, can you support your position or are you only trying to catch me in a “gotcha?”

[Power13]

@Abe_Froman

The statement is comprehensive by trainerroad.

Absolute nonsense. Literally dozens of podcasts, if not more, where they advocate rest and listening to your body. Your own history is one of not listening to your body and ignoring the advice of TR and forum members, but yet you still come here complaining that TR doesn’t work.

@kevshoes

If you can, can you support your position

So you don’t have time to go through a decade of content, but I am suppose to? If there was a good faith argument being made here, I’d be more than happy to oblige, but you (like Abe) continue to ignore the advice and information given. Just re-read this thread.

[G650]

@Power13

Absolute nonsense

It’s definitely not nonsense. I want to be clear that nothing I say is just to bag on TR, but there’s a lot of history that’s being glossed over when someone says “Oh they have said on the podcast”, and that is completely setting aside that forum users advice have nothing to do with how a company should be supporting their product. I think TR does plenty of things well, as I said I still subscribe, but historically they have not done a super job on setting a non trivial amount of people up for success on the workout prescriptions. I am happy to say that they recognized that and they have absolutely gotten better about it. If people think it is too hard now, man you should have seen it 10 years ago. Not just the masters stuff, but all the plans have gotten more reasonable.

Way back in the mists of time even the podcast had some very questionable advice. You can probably search it, but it was explicitly conveyed to do things like not get some Z2 time when returning to training but go right in to sweet spot, to add volume not by subbing an interval workout for Z2 but rather just add Z2 to an already high load of intervals, etc…

For giggles I actually scrolled back on my calendar to 2016, which I think is about the end of the old plans era, and it had the RL/GL colors on it. You can see that current TR doesn’t think it’s a great idea lol. This was Sustained Power Build MV I think.

[Pbase]

Yeah, I keep writing and deleting because I don’t want to come across as bashing either, but I don’t see how anyone can deny that there is a lot of mixed messaging around what to do with the plans, whether to modify them, add/remove volume, etc., including when it comes to what RLGL means. It just feel like if things are going well then it’s thanks to TR, but if things aren’t, then it’s your own fault, regardless of whether you did or didn’t follow the plan and recommendations. And that’s without even getting into “The right workout. Every time.”

[kevshoes]

Yes. The onus is on the person making the claim to provide evidence of the claim. Anything else is just handwaving.

I have followed the advice and I’ve come to the conclusion that TR is not for me. I did not arrive at this conclusion lightly or rashly. Its been years and months of experience and careful consideration. I have felt better and enjoyed cycling and training more in the week when I’ve ignored the TR workouts than I have in a long time and my legs don’t feel like I’ve just been electrocuted. If you’re happy with it, great. I was happy enough to let this whole thing lie after my update but ya’ll felt the need to push this. Is the loss of one user really that big deal for people here?

[mcneese.chad]

Perhaps this qualifies as part of the mixed messaging discussion, but the following is the closing paragraph from the very same blog article you pulled your quote:

Five Tips for Cycling Training Beginners

5. Respect Your Limits

While cycling training can be challenging, every workout shouldn’t be pushing you to your absolute limit. Remember it’s okay to cut a ride short, opt for an easier alternative, or even skip your scheduled ride when you’re not feeling up for it; Adaptive training will adjust your upcoming workouts to keep you on track. Remember, it’s all a part of a learning process; with time, you’ll know what works for you and what doesn’t.

Also noteworthy is the fact that the article above is dated December 2021 (seen in the link header but not visible on the actual blog page). The age doesn’t invalidate the info inherently, but it is a place in time and they published other articles since then that go beyond the “just follow the plan” statement that is being pinned here.

• Feb 2022

What Types of Adjustments Should You Make To Your Training Plan - TrainerRoad...

Beyond that, they have numerous instances of discussion about plans and adjustments for life through the years of podcasts since that post. I agree they can get a bit muddy at times WRT when to alter the plan vs stick to it, but the presence of a few lines in a blog that border on marketing fluff don’t negate the many other efforts TR takes to try and show people that personal review and manual adjustments are an essential part of the TR process.

And as shown in your very process here (as well as many other public examples), TR is more than willing to dive deeper into these issues with people. They seem to put forth a reasonable effort to educating people via a number of channels from what I see.

[ArHu74]

After splurging out for Wko5 it became apparent to me that trainerroad had moved my FTP very little from my unstructured riding but what did get much better was my anaerobic side (FRC) and pMax. So unfortunately trainerroad doesn’t work for me either . Maybe trainerroad is more for people that are aerobically gifted not the anaerobically inclined…

[hubcyclist]

perhaps, personally I find TR focuses a bit too much on “event specific” workouts, whereas I spend a lot of my own time doing sweet spot, threshold, and vo2, and throw in anaerobic work and more event specific things only occasionally

[Power13]

So let me clarify a few things…I am not saying TR is perfect or without its flaws. I myself got pretty fried back in 2020 or 2021 when I did SSHV plan (old structure). It was mainly a mental thing, but I was definitely fried. There was certainly a valid argument to made that a lot of the plans back then contained too much intensity.

What I am saying is that the two persistent voices in this thread complaining about TR have years long history of making mistakes with their training, not following plans properly, burning themselves out and then saying it is TR’s fault. As I noted back when this thread began, definition of insanity and all that.

The OP has had direct, offline contact with senior leaders of TR, been offered support multiple times, admits to user error, but largely still does not take any personal responsibility for his outcomes.

The idea that the totality of TR’s training ethos boils down to a single marketing blurb is disingenuous, at best. Endurance training is simple on its premise, but ultimately pretty complex when it gets to the individual. We don’t all respond the same and need to adjust accordingly. If you are having the same issues for years, then I suggest the onus in on the user to adapt their training to avoid those issues.

[G650]

@Power13

What I am saying is that the two persistent voices in this thread complaining about TR have years long history of making mistakes with their training, not following plans properly, burning themselves out and then saying it is TR’s fault. As I noted back when this thread began, definition of insanity and all that.

The OP has had direct, offline contact with senior leaders of TR, been offered support multiple times, admits to user error, but largely still does not take any personal responsibility for his outcomes.

Sure, but in my perspective the OP isn’t saying TR is bad, but rather explicitly that it doesn’t work for them (it is the thread title after all). I see them relating their experience for others who may be similar can maybe save some heartache. Which totally includes those who may not use TR in a productive manner for whatever reason, I think it’s good to put it out there so if someone recognizes that in themselves they would be able to maybe make abetter informed decision.

@Power13

The idea that the totality of TR’s training ethos boils down to a single marketing blurb is disingenuous, at best.

It doesn’t, but I do think you are really underselling how hard they push the are always choosing the right workout. That was even the basis of the whole adaptive thing. Nate has explicitly said he thinks they will replace workout selection by humans. I don’t, so I never approached it that way, and haven’t used TR workouts in years, but it’s definitely a messaging issue they haven’t fully solved. You shouldn’t have to call customer support to figure out the way they present the plans is maybe not correct after all. Yes, they do have some language saying you can change to easier etc…, but that’s the fine print, the headline and sales pitch is the opposite. That is the root of the issue in my eye.

TR- Helping You Select the Right Workout would be so much better and alleviate so much of this. Put language about picking easier workouts right in the first or second sentence.

@Power13

Endurance training is simple on its premise, but ultimately pretty complex when it gets to the individual. We don’t all respond the same and need to adjust accordingly. If you are having the same issues for years, then I suggest the onus in on the user to adapt their training to avoid those issues.

Absolutely agree.

[kevshoes]

@Power13

the two persistent voices in this thread complaining about TR have years long history of making mistakes with their training, not following plans properly, burning themselves out and then saying it is TR’s fault.

Making a lot of assumptions in that statement. My mistake largely is answering the survey questions. So no, I was not doing a bunch of extra work on top of the plans and then blaming TR. I’d say I was adhering strictly to their plan ~95% of the time.

@Power13

OP has had direct, offline contact with senior leaders of TR, been offered support multiple times, admits to user error, but largely still does not take any personal responsibility for his outcomes.

Again, a lot of assumptions about what I am at fault for (see above), what was discussed in those conversations, and what I have done since then. I had tried to be discrete out of respect for Jon’s and TR’s time and largely because the finer details of my training/life are none of your business. The bottom line of those conversations boiled down to “do low volume.” Following time off where a lot of things happened personally for me, I started a low volume master’s plan. And you know what, the plan just wasn’t clicking for me still.

@Power13

If you are having the same issues for years, then I suggest the onus in on the user to adapt their training to avoid those issues.

Agreed and that’s what I’m doing. I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not worth it for me anymore. Not sure why that’s got everyone in an uproar.

[bobmcstuff]

@G650

Yep. I think I started on TR in 2014 (Honestly been so long I can’t remember), and for years I would blow up in build like clockwork.

I had this issue a couple of times pre-AT, I think the progression in AT is a lot smoother now - there was one bit in one of the Builds that I think was pretty notorious for that. I remember a thread where someone looked back at the old plans post-PLs and it was like a 3 point PL jump in VO2 Max or something, and a lot of people were binning it there.

I have found RLGL really useful in managing stress - I am running a lot as well at the moment, if I do a hard run the day before a TR ride it will try and adapt my TR ride to an easier one, which seems to work really well (historically I would just try and do whatever was on the plan even when it wasn’t always the best idea). Biggest step forwards in integrating running to TR in ages (even though that wasn’t the main point). I imagine this will also work well for people doing outside rides as well.

But then they get the opposite side of the coin where some people are asking for the old plans back so you can’t win…

[Jonathan]

This thread is rampant with misrepresentation. Let’s clear it up:

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@kevshoes after reviewing your account in detail last year you and I had a call about the experience you’ve had using TrainerRoad and the issues you had been facing. I’m disappointed and surprised to see a totally different tone from our call to these interactions in the forum, as they don’t represent good-faith actions.

As you’ve alluded to, one of the issues we found was that in some cases you were not filling out surveys, but in many cases you were filling them out in a way that was trying to arrive at a certain outcome. Within the copy on the post-workout surveys it is indicated that we are simply asking you how that workout felt, yet you commonly went against that and answered in a way that suggested the workouts weren’t as hard as they were.

However, more problematic was the issue of associating rides (structured or unstructured) with scheduled workouts where you didn’t perform the work that was prescribed.

The combination of objective analysis and subjective feedback from the athlete is crucial to Adaptive Training adjusting your training to you. This isn’t unique to TrainerRoad. If a coach doesn’t hear from their athletes, they are simply left to guesses and assumptions.

We also discussed that although you had done more volume in the past, that doing less volume seemed to be a better approach for your current circumstances. You even agreed that this is a possibility.

After this I even suggested to you that maybe TrainerRoad isn’t for you, and if you did indeed feel better just riding and doing unstructured work, then you should follow that approach, knowing that if you wanted to come back at any point TrainerRoad would always be there.

With all of this in mind, I’m shocked to see you come back and place further blame on TR and not take ownership over the issues we discussed.

If you wish to misrepresent facts in order to tarnish the reputation of any TrainerRoad forum user (TrainerRoad included), then the forum is not for you.

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Within this thread it is mentioned multiple times that we expect athletes to listen to the podcast to learn how to use the product, and if they don’t, that we place the blame on them.

We’ve never said this. If athletes have questions about how to use TrainerRoad, we have stellar Customer Support staff that are ready to help and guide, and they are real people that respond quickly .

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I also want to make it clear that we banned Abe Froman due to his interactions in this thread that misrepresented TrainerRoad. He has had a track record of doing this and we have reached out to him multiple times with warnings. He chose to ignore the latest round of moderation efforts and continued to misrepresent, so he has been banned.

For a review on forum guidelines, see this thread: Welcome to the TrainerRoad Forum!

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Ultimately, TrainerRoad may not be for everybody, and that’s okay. This forum is a great place to have discussions about many topics, that one included. But this forum is not a place to misrepresent facts.