I do think for a lot of people the ramp test isn’t too bad a fit - you also need to remember that TR don’t do many Long (more than 20 mins) threshold type efforts so even if FTP is slightly too high these can still be done.
I personally think the longer Kolie Moore test is better BUT you do need a decent estimation of what your FTP is to start with. For new/inexperienced riders this will be v hard. My ramp test result is v close to my result for this test. The problem with these longer tests is knowing where to pitch yourself from the start - that takes experience.
The TR team have got it hard when it comes to testing as they’re trying to use a protocol that works from the beginner to a highly trained rider. A rider with experience of training and testing will be able to perform well in longer tests as they “should” understand how to pace the effort where as a beginner will blow up if you ask them to test for 40 minutes.
I think from a testing point of view, for a beginner the ramp test works well, but I do believe it over estimates FTP for a lot of riders. For those that don’t believe this, just read the hundreds of posts where people can’t hold sweet spot efforts. Going forward, I’m not sure there’s an easy fix.
FWIW, I perform longer tests for the riders I coach.
My feeling is that the ramp test works very well for beginners as they haven’t “learnt” to suffer yet. By that, I mean they may quit a little earlier than more experienced riders. This would then give an FTP which is probably more in line with “actual” FTP.
For more experienced riders, I feel longer tests give more accurate results.
quite possibly to promote more frequent testing, in advance of a new feature like adaptive training plans. But a few simple fact remain, a) FTP works well for setting training levels at threshold and below, and b) FTP estimate for an individual falls into a range and is not 75% MAP for everyone.
Do you mind me asking what test you usually prescribe? I’ve only ever done the 2x8min test and the ramp test. I’m doing the Kolie Moore test today though. But I’m interested in what other coaches decide to use for their athletes.
Ahh okay, so not just a 20 min test but something really similar to these Kolie Moore Tests. Interesting. They seem to be more popular than I would have guessed.
I’ve found it to be a more reliable way of determining FTP. Every rider is different though, some can test at shorter durations and the power matches the longer efforts, but for some riders it can be way off and that’s when people start to struggle at efforts under FTP.
I’ve been suspecting that the ramp test overestimates my FTP by quite a bit. I returned from a week’s vacation on Sunday. Used Truuli on Monday to prep my body for the ramp test on Tuesday, and the Kolie Moore Baseline on Wednesday.
Ramp test gave me a 330w ”FTP” but I lasted only 25mins during the baseline.
The bad news is that my FTP is clearly not 330w. The good news is that I’ve confirmed that the ramp test overestimates my FTP.
I’ll re-attempt the baseline assessment at some point in my calendar, but will aim for a much lower target FTP. Probably around 310w.
So first stab at the Baseline test. Ended up letting my ego get the best of me during the test and instead of dropping the power I stuck with the target power based on my current Ramp Test FTP and blew up at 17:45. FTP was set at 332 so the 2 steps were 319 and 339. I averaged 325 during the first section and the 337 for the portion of the next step. 325 felt right about my true FTP. Humidity in the garage got pretty high and the open endedness played with my head and not having a time target made it hard for me to keep pushing but that’s just an excuse. I was just going too hard.
I’m thinking of moving forward with an FTP of 320-325 but any insights would be welcome.
If your garage was pretty hot then that can definitely affect power and certainly RPE.
There’s a couple of ways of doing it, you can try building into the effort so not starting out too hard or if you already have an idea of what your FTP is, then aim to hold that for a set amount of time.
Certainly takes a few of these tests to get the hang of them. If feel fro more like say 320 then next time a threshold type workout is in the plan just substitute it for baseline test and think, I will stick at steady power around 320-325 for 40 mins. If feel good it last 5-8mins then can increase a little but for first 30 mins I’d stick to 320-325
It was about 77F and started around 61% humidity and ended just under 80%. The sweat was dripping at the end so I just wasn’t cooling effectively even with 3 fans (2 box and a lasko). Obviously it’s hard to disconnect the effect of the heat and too much power…
Do you think it would be a good idea to retest or do you think I should just move ahead with a 320-325 FTP and then retest again in 4 weeks. I had planned on doing an FTP block for the next 3 weeks after several weeks of SS and endurance rides and now sustained efforts over threshold other than MTB rides in almost 2 months.
Oh, absolutely. I’m definitely not looking at this as a negative but a huge positive. In two days I’ve learned a ton.
After having a super tough build phase back in June, I learned that I should be using RPE and HR rather than attempt to hit an exaggerated power target. This is just more confirmation that I’m on the right track.
When I compare your HR to mine when I did a similar test, the first thing that jumps out is that your bpm is rising all through the first 10 minutes at 96%. On mine it rises through the first 5 minutes, but then is pretty stable from 5-10 minutes.
Maybe keep an eye on that HR in the first 10 minutes. If it doesn’t stabilise, knock the power back a bit, or else it’s only going to keep rising and rising when you go to 100%.
You were over FTP the entire time. Start well under your current 40-min power, like 90% if you have good data, hold for 10 minutes, then start a slow ramp as long has your breath stays heavy but not ragged. You basically haven’t performed the protocol yet.
Your recent 40 min PR is 290W. So start at 260. Hold that for 10 min. Then start your ramp. This is how I pace the ramp generally: Have your 30s power and your 5 min power showing on your bike computer. Make your 30s power read as your 5 min power +5W. If your breathing starts to get off ride at your 5 min power. If you’re ‘recovered’ you can try to start ramping again. Go until you can’t turn the pedals anymore.
Yes, I noticed that as well and was just about to comment. Well over cooked, literally by the sound of the heat and humidity.
As workout at least you got an interval in above FTP. I’m not sure that as a FTP assessment it was too successful, or that you can really drawn any conclusions.
Personally (not taking the heat into consideration) I’d put your FTP under 320 (prob < 315), and if it was me I’d be starting the test around 300 - 310 watts absolute maximum. IMO it is better if the beginning is a bit under your FTP. You’ve got a minimum of 25 minutes (longer if doing the progression tests) to find and settle in at your FTP before you start to pick it up on the ramp towards the end.
Edit: and I agree wholeheartedly with whoever said that following a set TR workout doesn’t work to well, I might be wrong but the idea is to ride on feel, use RPE, secondary you can consider HR, don’t follow a blue block… when you get to the 100% section minute by minute use the +/- workout percentages if you really want to follow a visual i.e the blue block.
I think there’s a pretty common theme, and I’d agree that its probably more in the 315w, 320w max range. Not a wasted test at all though, you did something more like the TR 20 min test. So if you also had a valid test at 40+ min long, you would have just proved to yourself that your recent training has brought you to be able to do ~104% of FTP for 17:45, and some people find that good information to know. One case might be a shorter TT and you need a pacing target, for example.