Despite the fact that I transitioned to using Kolie’s longer protocols recently, this is a really great point. I do not think I could have properly paced a 45-60 minute long-form test when I was just beginning structured training with my first power meter and TR. While I had ridden for a while, my only experience with power was the handful of group rides I did after installing my power meter, which did give me some intuitive sense of “calibrating” my effort. Nevertheless, a 1-hour test on my first go would have been a disaster. The Ramp Test gave me the confidence to pursue longer sustained workouts in my first TR SSB training blocks, which helped me understand what it meant to ride at a SS/FTP-ish intensity for extended periods. The Ramp Test does lower the perceived bar to entry on structured training.
Mmmm…I would semi-agree/disagree on this. They shouldn’t be any more difficult than a hard workout.
Exactly. I’ve said that before, the last ~5min of the TTE test were similar RPE as the last ~5min of the ramp test. The ramp seems to want to test your entire an/aerobic spectrum in one shot, which isn’t really possible (I don’t think). Where as TTE zeros in on your FTP – and that’s it. It’s a more realistic result. Do separate and appropriate tests for your >FTP zones. I also think KM stated in his original article that Prog3 riders will also do separate non-TTE tests in order to flush out a proper power curve.
- Agreed.
I don’t see the ramp test as an attempt to escape from the pain and difficulty specifically. It may be mentioned, but slots in lower in the “pro’s” list when compared to the Pacing and Lower Stress Toll that are more often listed as the good aspects.
We should keep in mind the context, that a single Ramp test in a 4-6 week training period, is a drop in the bucket to a typical plan that include 2 “hard” workouts per week. It’s not like taking an “easy” Ramp test avoids the fact that the rider will experience plenty of hard efforts in that period.
Yeah I mentioned this in a thread yesterday. Practically speaking you can get a pretty good handle on your capabilities / fitness by doing 4 tests within a week or two of each other:
- sprint power: 5-sec sprint (“sprint”)
- anaerobic power: 30-60-sec max effort (roughly anaerobic work capacity)
- max aerobic power: 5-min all-out vo2max test or MAP / ramp test (“vo2max”)
- long ‘steady state’ power: at least 20-minutes long, and up to about 60-min all-out test (“FTP”)
Or just feed your data to WKO5, and let it tell you what to test in short/medium/long durations.
This is the entire idea behind iLevels. People are mostly the same sub threshold except regarding TTE. z2-FTP relative to FTP is going to be the same range for ‘everyone’, it’s just how long you can hold it. Everything less than TTE is weird because of how wide the gaps can be on anaerobic and long term aerobic adaptations. The WKO answer is just go all out every now and then to find a reasonable curve and then do intervals slightly below that.
The baffling thing to me is that TR has the data to make a pretty good wag at this, especially if a user is syncing all their outdoor rides. Their ‘short’ intervals shouldn’t be based of an FTP multiplier but a fraction of the ‘recent’ PB curve at that duration. This ‘fixes’ the VO2 is ‘too hard/easy’ problem.
My (largely unfounded) guess as to why they aren’t chasing this is 1) sunk cost on the workout library and 2) computing the PB curve is too expensive right now. Watch the delay that it takes for you PB to come in after uploading a ride… it can get backed up several minutes at times.
Can you change the percentage of resistance using the up and down arrow keys as in erg mode? I’ve never actually tried that.
Yes, just the Left/Right keys (Up/Down are still for Intensity):
I’m referring to a 20-min test which has you riding above (102-103% or higher) current FTP for 20 min. That’s tough. So yes, a classic 20 min FTP IS difficult.
Definitely not, but the TR team heavily promotes the idea that the ramp test is more optimal. This is the last reply I’ll give because it’s derailing the premise of this entire thread (sorry)
Advantages of the Ramp Test Over Other Formats
Traditional FTP tests are challenging and very exhausting. Not only do many riders avoid testing outright, riders who do perform traditional FTP tests often fail to complete them properly, or perform them poorly and need to redo the test. Worst of all, traditional FTP tests often yield questionable results that miscalibrate an athlete’s training. To make the Ramp Test the best and most efficient fitness assessment for cyclists, the TrainerRoad ramp test addresses a number of factors that often impact the success of more traditional testing methods:"
I just can’t get on board with what I’m reading here from Jonathan. Of the bunch, I feel most confident after doing Kolie’s TTE test, knowing that my FTP as taken from it is probably 99.9% accurate, whereas I can likely inflate my FTP on the ramp test after a nice VO2 block, which I suspect I did most recently.
I don’t think anyone is saying the ramp test is bad, it’s a pretty good test for a newbie…but I do think it’s not as optimal as TR claims it to be once you’ve been training for a while and get accustomed to it.
More accurate than your power meter!
Well yeah. +/- 2%
I did the basic KM test yesterday and didnt make it to the 25 minute point due to overcooking the first 10 minute block, I was 5 or 6W over the target, I made it to about 17 minute point which the average power at 3W above my current FTP, tbh I was annoyed with myself for not making it to the ramp portion but I’ve learnt from it and will give it another try tomorrow.
Personally I believe the ramp test slightly overestimates my FTP.
l also want to share my experience as I also somewhat failed with KM test before. I did Progression 1 back in Aug, 08. My respiratory system refused to keep going(Highly personal) on 27min marker where ramp even didn’t started. Phlegm(right word?) keeps developing and it was hard to keep breathing. Highest HR was 171, so it seems obvious I didn’t do a goot job. Outcome was 197W, but just set mine 199W.
Last week(Sep, 08) I tried Baseline test. Bucket for phlegm ready, This time I make it into ramping area. 34min AVG 203W(previous set ftp was 199W. 4W increase). I stopped pedaling because last 1~2min, my pace keeps going downward and I have to push it quite consciously in order to meet target power and feels like it’s some kind of depletion point… Max hr for this session was 178(Known max hr is 197).
One of my last ramp test(Jun, 30) gives me result of 204W. max hr was 181. But from my experience I know it definitely makes my SS training like Threshold work and recovering from OU incredibly difficult, I dialed down to 195W.
Since then, I’m using this KM test(only 2 times though) and really happy with that. As @empiricalcycling claims this test seems reflect actual physiologic FTP conditions really well. Before the ramping area it feels doable. During the ramp stage, I feel my aerobic engine die out and anaerobic kicks in(What I describe it is I have to pedal really really consciously. Pacing becomes really hard) more drastically. It seems there’s really no way(as far as I feel) these tests will overestimate my FTP. Thank you Mr Moore. And Thank you @alexgold123 for making the custom workouts for us.
I actually “failed” my first Kolie Moore FTP test, as I used @alexgold123 's Baseline test and had my FTP set at my last Ramp Test result. Given that I think it was a bit overestimated, I needed to take another shot a few days later. I personally started significantly lower than I though was necessary, and was able to ramp it up over the course of the test. For example, I started the test with my FTP in TR set at 245 watts. As a result, I started with a 10-minute interval at 240-245 watts. Despite this, I ultimately ended up with an average of 260 watts over a 50-minute test interval. Starting conservatively allowed me to ramp it up gradually and finish strongly as opposed to burning out quickly due to overcooking it.
My first attempt at the Kolie Moore FTP was done with my FTP set at 270, which the Ramp Test had recently given me. This had me start my test interval much higher, and I couldn’t hold on when the intensity ratcheted up. I bailed after maybe 15 minutes total in the test interval.
Yeah you learn the hard way I guess. I’m at 250 right now and now I checked my first 10 minutes was at 248 so clearly way too high. Today I’m aiming for 240 for first 10 and then 255 for the 15 min block and see where I end up. Yesterday I did it all in resistance but to keep me true to it I think today I’ll do the first 10 in erg to curb my enthusiasm and then switch out and go on feel for the rest of it.
Have you listened to the most recent Empirical Cycling podcast? If not I would advise you do. Having looked at your previous attempt I don’t believe your FTP is as high as 255 so there is no point aiming for that during the 15 min block. I would just start your effort at 240, and then slowly lift the effort until you feel like you’re riding at FTP and then hold that for as long as possible.
Yep, you’re no doubt correct, I’ll save it for another day, not feeling it today, started it but I knew I wasnt going to get to the end again. I’ll stick with what I have for the next 4 weeks of my plan.
I have listened to it yes.
Are there any TR groups I can join with this testing format created?
I found them to be very very different. Perhaps similar effort, but different types of RPE, if that makes sense. In the last 5 minutes of the ramp test, I feel like I’m drowning, gasping for every last bit of air. In a TTE test my breathing is hard but regular, and the fatigue in the legs creeps up on you, but you can just tell yourself “20 more breaths, OK well done, another 20 breaths” until your legs just won’t give any more.
I’m way more afraid of the pain at the end of a ramp test than the pain at the end of my TTE.
Thanks.