Muscle fiber types, recovery and training adaptations

Training
43

By V90, do they mean VO2max power * 90%?

The report is interesting. I’ve stumbled upon some of this stuff by myself. I’ve been 2-3 week blocks of intensity and they have really worked well. I did it by feel - I came to the conclusion that I was exhausted after not too many sessions and took a break. The other part of it was that we had to do a lot of short trips this year. So I knew I had 2 or 3 weeks before the next trip and I’d work on a certain type of interval for 2-3 weeks and then take my forced break.

The base of my training has been Z2/fatmax. I picked up these ideas from Seiler, San Millan, and Steve Neal. If I’m not in a definite block this is what I fall back on.

Under their “how to increase VO2max”, this sounds exactly like Steve Neal’s philosophy though he prescribes a lot of tempo. It’s a lot of aerobic and when he feels the rider is maxed out a bit, a short block of VO2max intervals, and then back to aerobic conditioning. It’s your basic extensive/intensive scheme.

I got really good out SS @ 85%. My first block was SS based coming out of base and I probably got a 20 point boost in FTP after a few weeks. This was after months of Z2/fatmax through the fall and winter.

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Looks like ~95% max hr…according to a Vo2 max - heart rate calculator. V90 would be 90 secs on, 120 secs off…over a 20 minute block. That comes out to 6 intervals per set (x2 or 3) with 10 to 20 minutes of recovery between each set. A little unusual.

Overall, it looks like a Ronnestad type of protocol (on-offs). Personally, I reserve on-offs for days when I don’t feel “in control” of the 7 - 8 minute efforts (mostly when recovery is incomplete) and sometimes it does happen because it is hard to recover completely on 20 hour weeks. I usually do the Vo2 stuff first, just to get it out of the way on the freshest day…then move on to tempo/sst + Z2. Total intensity ends up around 15 - 20% of total hours…sometimes up to 25% but no more than that. Ends up being 2.5 - 3.5 hrs/wk of intensity. Pretty much avoiding Z4 threshold these days (anything over 90% FTP). The diet of Z2+Z3+Z5 seems to work best. I’m a slow-twitch guy. My “bird” legs look pretty much the same as they looked when I started cycling about 30 yrs ago.

What I learned from going all in on Z2 is that it simply isn’t enough stimulus with Z5 alone. The Z5 efforts are too short, too taxing and simply take too long to recover from. Moreover, you can really put yourself in a hole, not to mention eventually hitting the wall at some point (16 weeks in my case) with minimal additional gains from the time spent. Z3 has been a huge boost to my performance and it’s what I was missing over the last two seasons riding polarized with high volume. It took some time to get the right formula but I think I’ve finally found it. Not doing any real Z3 work for 18 months was a HUGE mistake.

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45

The interview on the podcast above explains this why different athletes prefer/ get better adaptations from certain types of workouts.
Slow twitch - longer intervals
Fast twitch - higher power and intermittent.

46

@Tim_87, thanks for the post. I am finding myself in a similar boat, and with similar experiences. I am not sure how I want to train over time though.

Here is my Intervals.icu percentile profile (not sure why it thinks this is an all-rounder profile):

inticu
inticu887×539 116 KB

I originally started ~3 years ago with TR’s SSB-LV through Short Power and Crit plans and had excellent results. However, I found myself unable to train during ‘group ride season’, because the threshold and sweetspot workouts killed me.
It felt like I needed 2-3 weeks off to perform at peak.

I have tried several-week blocks of mainly VO2max and also of predominately Sweetspot, and didn’t really like either.

My latest attempt is self-built ‘faux-polarized’, where each week looks like this:

  1. a few days off
  2. a long easy ride
  3. sprint intervals (10-30 sec)
  4. short intervals (40sec-1:30)
  5. medium intervals (2:30-5min) at sweet spot or threshold

So far the results seem decent and I am way less burned out than when doing a lot of long threshold and SS intervals.

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47

Yes, I kind of stopped with the idea of launching an own website. I didn’t seem to me that there is a huge demand to be quite honest so the (time) invest probably wouldn’t fit to the actual return.

However, if someone is interested in running their test data through the algorithms (for free or a donation) just send me a message. :slight_smile:

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48

I’m a fast twitcher also. The biggest problems I encountered when I first started cycling training were:

  1. An over-inflated FTP - even with a 20 min test, and definitely with a ramp test

  2. Doing too much high intensity threshold work.

This combination led to too much fatigue.

Point #2 was exacerbated after I joined TR - as I put too much emphasis on sweet spot training (and most of TR sweet spot workouts are 90%+ intervals), and I followed the low volume SS plans - which as I’ve posted elsewhere would be more appropriately named Threshold plans

Over time, I’ve learned what training works for me - basically a pyramid approach.

  • A lot of Z2 at ~65% - this is my default training ride and I add intensity from there
  • Long sweet spot intervals at 85% of an appropriately set FTP
  • Hard start VO2Max intervals

I do two sessions of intensity per week, maybe three if I’m feeling good.

I do the VO2Max rides about every 7-10 days. So not quite once a week.

I should add - I’m not training for podiums. But want to have the fitness to ride for long days in the mountains - so sustained power is important.

Unfortunately, my days sprinting are behind me due to an ankle injury - which is a bummer because I think I would’ve liked crits.

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49

Dave, we must be psychically linked. That is almost exactly what my training has looked like this year. I did all by feel this year. I’m currently on a new peak so it’s been working.

I did add 5-10 seconds sprints to my training. I just add a few in here and there. My 5 second power has been on an uptrend for weeks.

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50

I don’t do any sprints in training, but do end up doing similar all out 5-10 second efforts when riding up technical terrain on my MTB.

I’ve lost peak power over the years from not training my sprint, but I don’t really need it any more.

51

Ditto for me. My default Z2 is a bit higher at 75% although going forward I’m going to reduce it slightly. I’m limiting my intensity to the once a week group ride. If weather stop that I’ll do a vo2max interval session instead. If I do a hilly ride with friends I’ll limit the intensity on them to SS if I can

52

I’ve not done any sweet spot for weeks after my metabolic test and I must say I think SS is a really important part of training that I’m missing now. I’m going to commit this programme until the next test so I can get some hard data on the efforts of a truly polarized plan.

When I’ve done sweetspot in the past I really feel like I come on. However, ultimately it ends in stagnation and fatigue. this could not be the fault of the sweetspot training and more my tendency to creep the power up though

So my next SS experiment will

  • be pretty strict on the power cap and not turn into a Pb attempt every other session.
  • be well fuelled
  • be at a high cadence (I tend to drop cadence as that brings HR down)
53

Great thread !

I’ve always considered myself as slow twitcher. I never had explosiveness or big speed or strength.
I could never do many pushups or any pullups :slight_smile:
I was a swimmer as a junior and trained as everyone else in my club for 50-400 m races but I was never good at 25-50 m, I was ok at 100 and as races went longer I was better and better. So if someone was faster than me 2-4 sec. over a 100 usually didn’t have a chance over 400 and especially 800 or 1500.
I had never trained for those longer distances but I was somehow better than others in those.

I am 40 now and last 20 years I have spent mostly playing football (soccer) and tennis recreationally.
Last year with corona I decided I could start running a little bit even if I have never loved to run just for sake of running (without any ball to chase :slight_smile: ).
Then I realised that as a swimmer I always wanted to try triathlon.

Enter cycling. The sport I follow on tv for 25 years and know everything about pro cycling but had no idea about training itself.
I started riding in July last year together with swimming (for the first time in 20 years) and running, approx. 3 sessions.
As a swimmer I immediately started to do some longer intervals on flat and shorter ones on the hills. Very soon I realised my legs are sore all the time. Even if I don’t ride for a few days next time I sit on the bike my legs are heavy.

End of october I bought a smart trainer and started with TR. My first ramp test showed ftp around 210 watts and I immediately realised I can not follow TR plans. I could do one session great but could not recover for the next one. I was also running, mostly easy, and swimming but I don’t know how much that influenced my recovery.
So I started to create my own ‘plans’ using the TR workouts and using their plans and this forum as a guidance.
I tried blocks of SS, VO2Max and polarized, lowering FTP from ramp tests but every time I would end up fatigued. And my ftp in 8-9 months got to 231 watts at the highest point and even that I lowered to 222 to be able to do the workouts. I was consistent with approx 3 sessions per week so no big tss’s but with other sports and my recovery rate I just couldn’t handle more.

Last couple of months I did mostly SS but at 85% and realised I could recover pretty good from those. Also started to do garrowby variations (SS 3-5 min intervals with short 30-60 sec rest) and I think that those were also pretty good for me.

After short summer vacation (12 days) I tried some threshold workouts to try to get my ftp approximation without testing and did lola workout (30 m of threshold) and was very happy how I did it, but I was sore for 7 days from it.

Vo2Max intervals 4-6 min at 108% feel not too bad doing them but also have harder time recovering from them.

Endurance rides at 70-75 % of ftp are also not very easy for me, 65 and bellow are easier and only for those I could say they feel like endurance riding.

Is there a chance I could be a fast twitcher after all ?

I am also prone to injuries, mostly tendons and muscle strains. Not the big injuries but always some niggles. I very easy get the muscle strains with some explosive movements.

Yesterday I finally had my first triathlon (sprint) and it went great for the first time, the bike course was very hard with the big hill and I gave everything there but I think I will be sore for the next 10 days :smiley: also my hamstring feels very sore, maybe it’s strained a little bit but it will recover in few days.

Any suggestions for the bike training ?
Should I try to incorporate more Z2 training, some lower SS and shorter VO2max intervals as some of you do ?

I am still confused about it, I still feel like slow twitcher but I recover like the fast twitcher.
I have a feelingy muscle endurance is poor and trying to improve it but it’s not very easy.

Also my heart rate is very low on the bike when I compare it to running where I can easily get to 170-175 bpm. My sweetspot work on the trainer my HR is around 125-135 bpm. Even at longer VO2max intervals it get barely to 150-155, but very often 145-150.

Sorry for the long post, it’s my first one on the TR after 10 months of just reading what you write :slight_smile:

Thanks.

54

It’s hard to say if you are fast twitch or slow twitch from your post. You’ve got a lot going on - running, cycling, swimming.

A few things come to mind - are you ever rested for your cycling sessions?

It sounds like you are fatigued by everything and you get DOMS easily. To me, it sounds like you need more endurance and what they call “durability”. You seem to only be riding at most 3 days per week. Are you ever doing long, slow endurance rides?

I was in a similar state 4 years ago. What brought me out of it was a polarized base block of super low intensity. I ramped up from 6 hours per week to 13 hours per week over 10 weeks. I added approximately an hour per week as I went along. I did a little bit of intensity once a week in the form of a group ride. I built up to 4 hours as my longest ride. 7 weeks into this block, my FTP was at an all time high and I was breaking all my PRs. I had also developed that durability such that I could do harder workouts and not have sore legs for three days.

Since developing a big wide base, I’ve been able to layer on SS, threshold, and VO2max and reach new highs.

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I agree with @AJS914 that it’s difficult to say if you’re a fast twitcher or just not very seasoned as a cyclist just yet. Fortunately in either case a healthy dose of Z2 endurance work is the prescription. Maybe try a polarized plan or the neglected(?) traditional plan is just right? Since you’re already an experienced swimmer and running seems to work ok I’d suggest that you put them in maintenance mode and focus on building a decent robustness as a cyclist.

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Thanks for your feedback :slight_smile:

After the rest week I am usually rested and then it depends on type of workouts. If I do low SS or bellow I am usually ok for the next session and in fact for a whole 1st week and then starting to feel it little bit at the end of 2nd week and in 3rd week I am more fatigued. But if I do some sessions over let’s say 95% of ftp then I usually feel it in my next sessions.

Also after the blocks with threshold or VO2max sessions sometimes my rest week isn’t enough to be rested for my next cycle. And my rest week is usually more resting than doing recovery rides as I have feeling that those recovery rides just make it worse.

I do get DOMS easily.
I remember as a swimmer if I would miss few days of training after the next training session I would get fatigued arms, even if I was in a great swimming form.

Generally I get most DOMS from cycling, but also if I do some strength sessions in the pool my arms are fatigued for my next sessions. But from running I rarely get too fatigued.

I did try to do some longer endurance rides like Perkins and Goodale and also Warren but those are only up to 2.5 hours and even that starts too feel too long on the trainer. Also I stayed too long on the trainer and started going out only in August as the trainer is more convenient because of the traffic and everything. So then I did few 3-4 hour rides but as I went to the hills each time it was long way from the endurance riding. It was mostly SS and over going up.
I guess I should try those real slow and long rides for a block or two and see how it feels.

57

I tried something like polarized plan with 2 longish 2-2.5 hour rides per week and one VO2max session with 4-5 minutes interval but after 2 blocks my recovery week didn’t help me at all so I had to take another rest week but without riding at all.

I was thinking about traditional base at TR. Maybe to do traditional base 1 and 2 back to back in November and December. Still not sure about volume but maybe high volume for base 1 and mid volume for base 2 as 4 sessions per week should be doable.
But base 2 has a lot of tempo so still not sure should I do it :confused:

58

It just sounds like you are doing too much intensity across the board. I think you would need to factor in your running and swimming as well in your total intensity distribution.

I’d bet you aren’t running super slow, so are probably getting a lot of middle intensity and threshold there. The same with swimming. Most people can’t even swim slow enough to be at their all day pace.

I think you need to look at the intensity and intervals in all of your sports and plan it from a top down global point of view. If you were going to follow a polarized scheme, for example, with two workouts per week containing intervals then the other 8 workouts in that week will be low intensity aerobic. If you do intervals on the bike, on runs, and in the pool you are going to quickly burn yourself out. From what you posted, you are tired by the 2nd or 3rd week.

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59

Yes, I guess that could be the case.

Usually I don’t have big running mileage, mostly 3 runs per week, max. 4 sometimes (20-25 km, max up to 30). One is something like speed workout (intervals or tempo), one is ‘long’ run which is usually 10-12 km of slow running (under 140 bpm) and one shorter easy run or short brick 3-4 km at race pace depending on how I feel and at what point I am with the training.

Swimming, my ‘quality’ swim is usually threshold session and I have 2 easier sessions but I guess they are more moderate then real easy. I can swim with very little effort but usually I don’t do it that easy :slight_smile:

So yeah maybe I should cut it to one intensity session per sport and rest of the sessions to hold strictly very low intensity, under AeT. Should I try to get more volume then? Longers sessions or more sessions maybe ?

I am not sure for cycling what my intensity should be ? SS or something higher ? I think I should avoid threshold, maybe SS for start and later to do blocks with shorter VO2max intervals, the longer ones fatigue me too much I think and I can get much higher HR with the shorter ones as intensity is higher and also my cadence too with it.
I know that SS is not part of polarized training but as I understood the pyramidal model can be very effective too, especially for cycling.

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How many days per week are you getting into zone 4 and zone 5 heart rate territory in your workouts? My guess is you are going too hard too often for your heart. People forget that the heart is a muscle and needs rest and that it is hard to keep the heart rate in zone 2 (5 zone system) when swimming and running.

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I usually don’t get generally fatigued. I mean it happens from time to time and I feel it in the morning immediately and usually my HRV is low in these cases.
Or sometimes I can see my HR doesn’t go up and I know I have to rest.
But these usually happen after doing intensity sessions on the bike like threshold or long VO2Max intervals, or if I run 1k intervals at very high intensity. So I try to avoid these whenever I can.

But I think my problem is more the muscle fatigue. My legs are heavy from SS intervals and up. I found out in last few months that I can handle better intervals at 85% or shorter 88-94 intervals with very short breaks (30-60 sec). Even longer 70-75% steady rides can feel hard very often.

I mean I don’t know, maybe I am wrong but I try to read the signs and take recovery seriously and always checking my resting HR and very often the HRV too and trying to learn from my previous mistakes and taking the rest or choosing easier session if I’m feeling I am getting fatigued.

That’s why I am more inclined to think that is a muscle related thing, but probably I just use them too much and they just respond that way :slight_smile:

Sorry guys, I didn’t mean to highjack the thread, my intention was to connect it with the fast twich / slow twich discussion as I have been thinking about it for some time now but I guess I went too much offtopic.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

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Why sweetspot and VO2max intervals? You are doing too much overall. In your run you have speedwork and a threshold brick run. In your swim you have threshold and two other moderate swims.

Pyramidal training is great but you need a big wide base of low intensity, a little bit of middle intensity, and a tiny bit of high intensity. You also might need different intensities at different times of the year depending on how far out your event is.

Pick the training stimulus that you are working on and then dole it out between your sports. For example, your heart doesn’t know if you are doing VO2max work on the bike, on the run or in the pool. You don’t need to do it in every sport.

Maybe read Friel’s triathlon book for ideas or buy a triathlon plan that lays out a basic structure for you?

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