In what way does shifting feel crude and noisy? I have similar setups (Force eTap AXS and XTR M9000), and at least SRAM‘s electronic road groupsets aren’t noisy at all. (Shimano‘s Di2 groupsets I have tried produce a whirring sound, which I don‘t like, but would probably get used to.) Compared to my previous XT drivetrain, my XTR is definitely smoother, but softer than XX1 mechanical I tried a few years ago on a rental. Shifts with XX1 felt more positive, more binary, 0-1, either you have shifted or you have not. Shimano‘s shifts are “softer”. But I wouldn‘t characterize either as superior to the other. I did like SRAM‘s double-tap-equivalent trigger shifter better, though. Overall, I‘m very happy that by lucky accident my new-used bike came with XTR, I really, really like it.
AFAIK the SRAM brakes to get are the Code Rs (and up), which are as light or lighter than Shimano 4-pot brakes and have a good reputation. I haven‘t tried them, though. Shimano brakes do work very well, though, so this is definitely an uphill battle for SRAM. I will have to replace the brakes on my new-to-me mountain bike (the previous owner took off the XTR brakes before selling it to me and put on very old Avid brakes), and try as I might, I will probably stick with Shimano.
1x12 works well for me on my road bike and I live close to proper mountains. Gravel riders seem to be split. Most of the people here in Japan with gravel bikes have gotten 1x (most of them Shimano 1x). But I get that others don‘t feel that way. SRAM gives you a choice, Shimano doesn‘t.
Have you tried both? I‘m a big fan of Shimano‘s mountain bike disc brakes, but in my experience their hydraulic disc brakes are inferior to SRAM‘s, and it is not even close. Shimano‘s drop bar brakes have a wooden feel to them, not much in terms of modulation, but aren‘t as sharp as their mountain bike brakes. My SRAM brakes have way more modulation and give me more feedback.
I find the shimano shifts are much more decisive. In fact, the way you describe why you like the SRAM shifting is exactly how I think about the shimano shifting. My XX1 shifts precisely but not as instantly or with as much authority as either the di2 or mechXTR. the di2 is stunning in its precision. The xx1 drivetrain always makes more noise to my ear. Not bad noise, I just hear it more than I hear the shimano stuff. An interesting test I like to do it go for a short ride with earplugs in. Then mid ride pull the ear plugs out. The sounds and noise of the drivetrain become extra obvious. I’ve read that some people have better luck with a KMC chain than the sram chains, but I’ve never tried.
One’s local terrain will absolutely determine the appropriate gearing. I have not found a 1x12 setup that will make me happy doing some decent flat mileage, gnarly climbing and super fast descents. Without creating too big a jump between rings, even 2x11 can feel a little short in range. I’m keen to try a 2x12 at some point here. Real running gears AND real climb like a goat gears.
I’ve never understood all the fixation with brake modulation. I don’t find shimano to be lacking any finesse, even compared to maguro and others known for their excellent brake feel. I use my mtb brakes a lot more than i use my road bike brakes. Or rather, the braking application is generally different. short hard pulses vs longer sustained speed control. Maybe I like the wooden feel?
Speaking of brakes, the sram brakes always stopped just fine. They just make a ton of noise and god forbid they get wet and then they howl even louder.
Super cool that we have so many good options these days!
To be clear: I am not claiming their mountain bike brakes have a wooden feel, just their hydraulic road disc brakes.
On a mountain bike I completely agree with you that Shimano’s brakes are great. I have had Hayes FX9, Magura Julies, Shimano XT and Avid DB-1s now. My Shimano XT brakes were great, I also loved the Julies. Both have been flawless for me, they lasted until I sold the bikes with no degradation in functionality. What more do you want from brakes? I’ll probably replace the Avid DB-1s with Deore XT or SLX brakes very soon. (Since I live in Shimano country, this is likely the easiest option.)
But on a road bike, Shimano stated that it engineered the shift/brake levers to mimic the feel of rim brakes, which seems like a big mistake to me. That, I believe, is the origin of the wooden feel. I have two generations of Shimano’s hydraulic drivetrains in both, their 105 and Ultegra incarnations, and they all have the same bad brake feel with little-to-no-feedback. My Force eTap AXS brakes are a giant improvement. Even if you don’t like SRAM’s mountain bike brakes, I recommend you give their road brakes a try.
With regards to brake noise, I was always blessed with quiet brakes on my road bikes, be it Shimano or SRAM. So it is a wash for me in the best sense.
To be honest, I don’t think it is the terrain. Where I live (Japan) I can climb from pretty much sea level to up to 1,700 m with the longest sustained climb being about 1,000 m in elevation in one go. Doing that with 1x (with a 10-36 cassette) is no issue for me. I can hang with very fast riders, did crit races and will likely do hill climb TTs this year, too.
I have almost the exact same gearing as a compact crank coupled to an 11-28 cassette (360 % vs. 374 %). My previous road bike was 2x11, it sported a compact crank and a 11-32 cassette. The jumps in between gears feel identical to my SRAM 11-32 cassette where the 11-tooth cog has been replaced with a 36-tooth cog. (And you can confirm that by looking at the gear jumps, they are indeed very, very similar.) If a 11-32 cassette works fine for you now, I don’t see how people can complain about the steps in SRAM’s 10-36 cassette, because it just isn’t there. (You could have smaller steps in the middle of your gears by staying in the small chainring, but everyone I know switches to the big chainring as soon as they can, including myself when I had two.)
I would say that whether you prefer 1x or 2x is determined by two factors: (1) At speed (e. g. on the flats), do you prefer spinning or grinding? And (2) your gear range needs (anxiety?). Personally, I like spinning at higher speeds (think 37-50 km/h), so even on my previous road bike with 2x, I was usually in 50:14–50:13 at high speeds. I only used the 50:11 on the downhills, and when I had a loaner with a semicompact, I used the 52:11 only on very, very few descents. And my gear needs are being met at any speed. I of course wouldn’t mind an easier gear, especially because that would make it easier to do endurance rides in the mountains. But that’s ok. I’m also fairly fit (last season I peaked at 342 W/4.7 W/kg), so if I needed lower gears, that’d probably be easier on 2x. But even on 2x, I probably wouldn’t want to get much larger gears, because that would shift the tightly spaced gears to speeds that I would rarely attain in practice.
Still, I don’t want to come across as claiming that 1x would work better for you, not at all. I’d just say that some of the oft-repeated common lores are not correct (like 1x12 does not work in mountainous terrain), at least not for all riders. My argument is that 1x12 is good enough to be considered as an option for many riders when they get a new bike with drop bars, and groupset manufacturers should give riders the option.
Let me just say how nice it is to have an actual discussion online instead of just two idiots disagreeing!
I’ll take the recommendation and try a sram road group when an opportunity arises. To date, I’ve ruled them out because of my experience w/ mtb. You are right to evaluate them separately.
My gravel bike has sram rival. Prior to that I’ve only had shimano tiagra and 105. Definitely prefer 105. I like the shifters a bit better and shifting just seems softer with shimano where sram the click of the shifting is loud and plasticky feeling if that makes sense. But it’s not like I hate sram.
Well, if you’re a size 56/ML and would like a mint Giant TCR Advanced Pro Disc with SRAM Red AXS, hit me up, haha. I’ll be looking to offload one soon.
To chime in on this topic, I have owned Shimano Di2 11 speed, Shimano mechanical, SRAM Red AXS (Road) and SRAM Rival AXS (XPLR), and I am in the process of going back to Shimano Di2 12 speed. I prefer Shimano for a number of reasons, and I’m glad they went at least semi-wireless. I find the shifting and braking better overall, and the main advantage that SRAM held over Shimano in my opinion was always setup/maintenance, being wireless. Don’t get me wrong, SRAM is great, and shifts really well. It’s just not as crisp/reliable as Shimano. Furthermore, with Shimano adding in 11-34 cassettes to their road groupsets, the issue of gear range isn’t as disparate anymore, unless you’re looking for something less than 1 to 1. In that case, you have to either 1) shell out for the Rotor 11-36 12 speed cassette; or 2) go with an aftermarket crank such as Praxis 48-32 for sub-compact chainrings.
I’m considering going the other direction with my gravel bike. I’ve currently got GRX Di2, and considering going to Force WIDE. The single tooth steps on the smaller end of the 10-36 cassette look very appealing compared to the Shimano 2 tooth steps.
Well, despite my rant/discussion of Shimano v. SRAM above, I will say that on gravel I think SRAM’s gearing offerings make sense. Especially in the configuration that you’ve mentioned. 46/33 and 10-36 give you a low end roughly equivalent to a 1x w/ a 38 chainring and a 42 cassette, while keeping smaller steps and a higher top end. I should have clarified that my rant was more aimed at the road sector.
I’d like to address a couple of points that aren’t fully appreciated in this long running SRAM v Di2 discussion, but first, I digress. [WARNING He’s going to get maudlin, skip to the next section if this gets too much – editor.]
I turn 69 this September. 2022 marks my 50th year as a roadie. In ‘72 I scored/scammed a Gitane (w/Stronglight cranks, Simplex derailleurs, and Mavic tubulars) from a blossoming stoner living in my freshman dorm. Ever since, riding road became my church. For the next 4+ decades, I never had the disposable income nor time to train and compete (grad school, family, job, student loan debt, etc.) – but I always rode hard and long. In ’74 I bought the 1st set of Shimano Dur Ace brakes (before Shimano launched its group set – or maybe they did but I was too broke to afford it). In 1980, I worked in a bike shop while starting grad school and came away with a hand-built steel bike spec’d with Super Record. In the late ‘80s, Time pedals saved my knees. I rode that steel steed up to the 2003, when I bought online a used red S-Works E5 spec’d also with Campy Record. It accelerated like a rocket and was so much more responsive that I named it ‘Shadowfax’. [Geez! Who names their bikes? – editor.] I commuted to work on a fixie for 10 years until 2016 when arthritis in my right knee set in. I rode Shadowfax until its seat stay cracked in 2017, held a wake, and then spec’d out an Allez Sprint (replacement frame – bright blue with a red pearlescent overspray) with mechanical Ultegra & Stages L power meter. Great handling bike, but like its predecessor, after mile 50 my rear end felt the level-2 torture from all of the road shock transmitted by this damn aluminum frame. [Dummy, why didn’t you get a carbon fiber bike instead? Well, I had no $$; my wife and I were still putting kids through college.] In winter 2020, I put down a deposit at my LBS for a rose-gold Athena w/ SRAM Red Etap AXS (a long-promised graduation present to myself). Due to supply chain issues, the bike finally arrived at the shop in July 2021. The delay worked out quite well because I was able to pay off the bike by the time it arrived – which made my wife happy (well, maybe less harrumph-y). Now, all I think about is being on the Aethos, riding the Aethos, climbing on the Aethos, etc. Can’t wait to ride it in this summer’s Colorado’s Triple Bypass! I’m still working, so the Allez Sprint is now my bitchin,’ far out commuter bike. 2 more years to retirement.
To the issue at hand – Di2 vs Etap:
Both systems solve a serious repeated motion injury that I have been dealing with for almost 2 decades due to using Campy mechanical shifting – chronic tendinitis in my thumbs and some in my wrists. In 2016, an older rider queried Leonard Zinn column in VN on what he could do. Andy Pruitt’s suggestions were to go electronic and get therapeutic massage. I’m now able to do both. Pain-free shifting is a blessing.
I test rode Di2 on a Tarmac in Winter 2020 before ordering the Aethos. Great bike and great group set! However, with winter gloves on, the layout of the Di2 buttons on their shift levers caused me to mis-shift gears way too many times. Not so with Etap.
On my Allez I ride an Ultegra compact crank & 11-28 11sp cassette. When I shift from the big chain ring to the smaller one, I have found that the gear change is too big of a step – I’m spinning madly until I quickly shift the rear derailleur so as not to lose momentum. This has irritated me for years. SRAM’s innovations:
SRAM’s 2021 Red Etap AXS solved this problem by shrinking the size of the chain rings (my compact crank: 46t/33t) and the gap between them to 13t, while adding a 12th cog. This is path-breaking. In this last covid-plagued offseason (December-March), I trained on the flats around DC with a 10-26 12sp cassette. My Aethos’ gearing is identical to my brother’s Cervélo’s Ultegra semi-compact crank set & 11-28 11sp cassette. I have smaller gear steps and mostly seamless shifting. [OK, 2022 Shimano Dur Ace and Ultegra group sets added a 12th cog, but the 16t difference in chain rings does not fully solve the problem.]
Another innovation is the Red rear derailleur’s fluid clutch mechanism. I’m currently training for Colorado’s Triple Bypass on a 10-33 cassette. In switching from the 10-26 cassette to this one, I didn’t have to swap chains or worry if the rear derailleur cage is too small. I just adjusted the rear derailleur setting on my smartphone’s SRAM app. Seamless. In November I’ll switch back to the 10-26 cassette for the offseason.
FWIW: Easy way to clean a water bottle after a ride is to fill it with warm to hot water and pop in a denture cleaning tab (e.g., Efferdent). These tabs can even clean out gunk building up after a few days. I still run the lids through the dishwasher.
New Force AXS on my new road bike. GRX Di2 on my gravel bike.
Initial impressions;
Di2 rear shifting is better(being nit picky)
AXS front shifting is better(probably due to the smaller difference between chainrings)
Miss having the buttons to control my 530 on the AXS bike
Annoying that I can’t operate the FD and RD at the same time on the AXS bike. (I’ve managed to get along pretty good with the ‘compensating shift’ function though.)
Ultimately, IMO, one isn’t any better than the other, just slightly different. Now that there are going to be 4 AXS bikes in the house though, I’m seriously considering moving the gravel bike over to Force WIDE just so it’s not an odd ball parts bike.
I have to agree on both of your major points, the gearing and the clutch. I recently had to step back to Shimano after a while on Sram, and damn I miss it way more than I expected. The jump at the front chainrings is too big, the shifting isn’t noticeably better, the lack of a clutch has chipped a freshly painted frame.
I’d expected to feel some relief going back to shimano due to front shifting reliability, but it really hasn’t been the case. The gearing is a huge issue for me, losing a lowest gear of 35-33 to a 36-30 combined with that 16 tooth jump compared to the 13 tooth of Sram, it’s been huge for my ride experience.
I agree. I marvel at SRAM’s ingenuity! Di2 better performance metrics may be important to racers, but they are irrelevant to me. I rode a 50 mile loop along Skyline Drive 2 Sundays ago. It was beautiful but I shredded my legs. I’m going to ride it again this Monday. Even though the DC area has some steeply graded climbs up to 20%, they are too short. I need these long, continuous climbing miles if I’m going to attempt the Triple Bypass in August. The 10-33 cassette is perfect for this. When I rode in the flats through DC’s Rock Creek Park this last Sunday (still climbed 2,000 ft over 60 miles), the gear steps of the 46/33 compact crank an the 10-33 cassette were still too big. I really like being able to switch to smaller cassette during the offseason.
Thanks for writing. Where are you based?
Cheers,
Steve
“I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.”
Yes and no, it was the gearing available to me (leftover from previous build) and also had the top end gearing that matched the 48-10 best, after all this is my ‘aero’ bike! But you’re right that if I had the choice a compact would be best. Doesn’t change my preference for the smaller front chainring jump though.
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