Polarized Training Discussion (Fast Talk podcast & Flo Cycling podcast)

[Berggeiss]

I did try that for a while, but I found it quite annoying to do every morning and I soon just gave up.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

HR strap and Elite HRV app.

If you want to really geek out, you can download an HRV data desktop program used by healthcare (Kubios). Import app readings/files to the program and you can get some interesting stuff which apps don’t provide.

That said, I think HRV might only be useful to track your normal overall health trend, not sure it can or should dictate your training.

*both app and program are free.

[bbarrera]

HRV is also on my Apple Watch, and other wearables.

[Berggeiss]

I had been using HRV4training, but I was too lazy to do it everyday. Just seemed like an extra thing on top of a very busy schedule. Maybe I’m just falling for all the Whoop marketing that seems to follow me around at the moment.

[bbarrera]

Like the Captain, I’ve also used HRV app and Garmin strap. No matter Apple Watch or Garmin chest strap, my HRV is in a fairly narrow range and not of much use to influence training.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

Yes it is a bit of a pain to take morning readings, especially if you want good data — 5min readings.

Forgot to mention one thing HRV might be able to reveal is your VT1. Using the desktop program, it’s quite eye-opening to see a graphical representation of when your para/symp nervous systems become dominant.

[bbarrera]

@Captain_Doughnutman

After doing ~14 months of hammerfest training, including 6+ months of TR (mostly HV), I started tracking my HRV. Yikes. I was basically lying face down in a ditch. Over the course of many months of doing only low-HR rides, which do not cause hormonal et al distress, my HRV readings had increased dramatically across the board.

it makes me happy to read this, as some of us were telling you to stop going overboard on training.

[oggie41]

@Berggeiss

I’ve wondered if this is something that’s worth the investment.

This is a decent thread on all things HRV:

Anyone using HRV? (Heart Rate Variability)

There’s a fair amount of chatter about using hear rate variability (HRV), particularly to track fatigue. Does anyone have any experience with this? Do you find it useful? Any particular recommendations on getting started?

@Berggeiss

I had been using HRV4training, but I was too lazy to do it everyday. Just seemed like an extra thing on top of a very busy schedule.

The HRV4Training dev recommends the Oura ring if you’re looking for a wearable. They integrate with it now:
https://www.hrv4training.com/blog/oura-ring-integration-read-sleep-data-whole-night-heart-rate-and-hrv-in-hrv4training

[oggie41]

@HMG

A key point that I haven’t seen mentioned above is study structure and the perils of extrapolating results, which Seiler mentions in some podcasts. TR bases much of it’s approach on studies performed over a few weeks (or even a few months), and for these time periods, Sweet Spot is extremely effective. I truly believe that if you become a good Ramp Tester, some of the high volume plans can teach you to suffer like no other plan I’ve ever seen. With this ability to suffer, plus the physiologic gains over a 3-6 month cycle (like a Base/Build/Specialty plan), a rider can blow personal-bests out of the water.

The problem develops when you start trying to string these together over a span of years, which I know has been discussed above. The vast majority of studies (maybe all exercise physiology studies?) in amateurs are done over a relatively short period of time. When these plans are stretched out longer, there are major hormonal shifts occurring that cannot be captured in 3-6 month observational windows. Pushing your body into the red 4-6 times per week for much longer than a year or so can lead to some bad outcomes. I started using Whoop recovery monitoring this year, and it has shed some light on these periods of intensity. I’ll tell you it isn’t pretty.

I will be doing polarized training for the foreseeable future because, for my N=1 (and I know I’m not unique in this respect), it just isn’t kind to your body or your stress hormone systems to push yourself that many times per week for years on end, and I am including anything >65% Ramp Test FTP as “pushing yourself” with full recognition that Sweet Spot can make many people faster cyclists. I’d like to be cycling for the next few decades though, and I feel that more than 2x/week intensity at 10-20 hours of structure per week will inevitably lead to destruction.

Good post. Agree with most of that.

@HMG

To switch gears a bit, I have trouble understanding the dogmatic clinging to sweet spot. TrainerRoad is perfect for a polarized training model because of the profound level of control one can over time in zones, total time per week, intensity control down to the single % level, and the diversity of the interval structures to keep it fun.

Disagree with this part though. For TrainerRoad to do POL well they’d need to drive the low intensity workouts by target HR range, not target power. From what they’ve said in the past they’ve got no plans to do this.

[bbarrera]

@oggie41

Disagree with this part though. For TrainerRoad to do POL well they’d need to drive the low intensity workouts by target HR range, not target power.

LOL to be honest that makes no sense. Seiler wants you to go into a lab and have lactate testing done, so to do POL well you need to establish LT1 and then have HR and power targets. At that point you can do either power or HR.

[oggie41]

@bbarrera

LOL to be honest that makes no sense. Seiler wants you to go into a lab and have lactate testing done, so to do POL well you need to establish LT1 and then have HR and power targets. At that point you can do either power or HR.

As it stands an off the shelf TR POL plan would give everyone power targets for their low intensity work. For some that might work fine, for others they could be working harder than LT1 at the workout FTP%. My point is it’d be better to drive the low intensity sessions by HR, to ensure they’re always under LT1 HR. Clearly lab and lactate testing would be better.

[bbarrera]

At times my HR varies enough that I could say the same about LT1 HR. The point being, discipline is discipline. You can lower power targets just as easily as lowering HR targets. And last I checked, TR app shows HR.

[HMG]

I have had a lot of success with Whoop. It is not intrusive, provides direct feedback, and has been useful in behavior modification. It is expensive though. It is also absolutely not perfect, but I have been very impressed at the early warning it provides when throwing too much TSS on the fire. My biggest challenge is doing too much, and after not missing a HV interval in over a year, Whoop has been extremely good for me to establish when to hit the gas and when to hit the brakes. A rule I have set for myself is absolutely no cycling if my recovery is “in the red.” It is also nice when recovering from sickness to determine when it is time to start gradually getting back into the swing of things.

I do not and will not ever presume to know what is best for TrainerRoad as a whole. However, I do think that a set of polarized training plans would be an easy get. For example, a Ramp Test is a wonderful way to establish a maximum heartrate. Going a step further, a 20 min power test would be a fairly good (not perfect) approximation for FTP. From my general observations, cyclists looking for a polarized plan tend to be high-volume or at least moderately experienced, for whom a good 20 min test is a real possibility. So now a max HR has been established along with a good approximation of FTP. With these two things, polarized training plans are easy to formulate.

In general I push back on the idea that a company can only sell one product or risk invalidating that product, something like “If we give an inch on sweet spot not being perfect then no one will use it and we will flounder.” I have listened to all 280+ podcasts, and never once has there been any hint of recalcitrance toward a new idea or suggestions from others. It has been stated over and over and over, and then found to be true through experience over and over and over that no one training plan works perfectly for everyone…so why not embrace it?

[HMG]

I’d appreciate a computer programmer’s input, but I find it hard to believe that, given the sophistication of TR software and all of our training tools, a workout could not be designed to have power “float” with HR over a given period of time. For instance, have average HR calculated every X minutes, then have power adjusted up or down 1% based on the target HR. Clearly I am neither a business person nor a computer programmer, but the complexity of these products makes something simple like this seem do-able.

[oggie41]

@bbarrera

The point being, discipline is discipline. You can lower power targets just as easily as lowering HR targets.

Yes. But the majority of TR users would blindly follow the power targets. Once you know what intensity you should be working at as an individual you don’t need an off the shelf TR POL plan anyway.

[sryke]

yep, the same for me. Tracked it religiously for over 2 years. All I learned from it was that I shouldn’t travel (especially biz trips) and that I shouldn’t race. Nothing as motivating as your smartphone app telling you that you feel sh** and should take a rest day. Great motivation for a race morning

Adding to that, in my age staying in bed right after waking up is “difficult”

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I’ve said this before but I still don’t understand what POL needs a plan for. Do 4x8min twice a week. The remaining time ride very, very, very easy. That’s it. Does one really need a target for very, very, very easy? With a fixed time budget one can progess with intensity in the 8min intervals only anyway. Elites following POL progress with volume and intensity.

[Berggeiss]

@sryke

Adding to that, in my age staying in bed right after waking up is “difficult”

I had the exact same problem

[bbarrera]

@sryke

Does one really need a target for very, very, very easy?

Well I’m guilty of overdoing really easy, but have since been reformed and target 70-90 watts (FTP of ~250). Just pick an easy gear and start spinning. Double check that power and HR are low, and then keep spinning.

[sryke]

@bbarrera

target 70-90 watts

2 digits territory ?!? This is dedication to the process

[grawp]

My natural average power over a long road ride would roughly be around 140w. This is the pace I make when I’m not thinking about anything apart from just riding along, enjoying the view. My ftp is around 290w.
Does 140w look about right to you guys as a sensible effort level for polarized training?