they used the term graduate in the podcast.
Must have missed that. Apologies.
Mike
no worries; cheers Magic
Then lower the intensity. The training benefit is not from hitting power numbers, itās from raising your heart rate to a high but sustainable level for as long as possible.
Set the RBI to 2min, set the work intervals to 103%, and then adjust up and down as youāre riding so that the last 2 minutes of each intervals are approximately as follows:
Interval 1: 89% maxHR
Interval 2: 91% maxHR
Interval 3: 93% maxHR
Interval 4: 95% maxHR
7 Likes
100% @martinheadon 
This is my intention from my original post, thanks for the interval HR advice.
Iām literally just back in from a ride, completed 4 x 8 with 2m RBI, I would share the file but Iām not too sure how. 
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/veloaccro/rides/58167066-morning-ride
Heart Rate Peak is 190bpm.
Iāll stick it out for the next 4 weeks and fingers crossed, cheers everyone.
1 Like
@martinheadon, itās great following your experience of these intervals (across threads). Really useful! Small questionā¦ With the HR targets you mention, are these the Seiler prescribed or are they what youāve found best helps you to complete the interval set? Or both?
As with a lot of Seilerās work, itās not so much a prescription as an observation. In his research, he asked experienced riders to complete the 4x8min intervals at the fastest average pace they could manage. The heart rate figures I quoted are the average that were recorded across the athletes in the experiment, which Iāve taken as a useful guide to the intensity required.
But it also comes from a little bit of experience - I know that if I ever reach 94-95% maxHR, that tends to mean that Iām about to blow up and have to finish the session. So yes, keeping intervals 2 and 3 around that 90-93% range definitely means I have a much better chance of finishing the intervals without backpedal breaks.
It works too - my last 4x8 session resulted in my highest 20min heart rate for 2019. But I felt like I was in control of the intensity throughout, and didnāt feel utterly drained after.
3 Likes
yes, he used the term āsolve the equationā . Ride the highest sustainable intensity that you can hold in all intervals. The HR is the solution of the equation. The HR sample from @martinheadon is just a perfect example.
But there is a wide individual variation. I normally reach in the first intervals 88% and not more then 93% in the entire series. Often no further rise in the 4, interval even though the power remains stable.
95% I donāt see in 4x8 unless I perform final sprint, like in criss cross intervals.
2 Likes
Yes indeed, it may vary from person to person. And people may have reached / calculated their maxHR with different methods, which means that 95% for one person might not be quite the same as 95% for another. So itās possible that your 93% HRmax is the same % of vo2 max as my 95%.
1 Like
While i had been in the 2 min rest intervals are important to get to target hr camp, even the modified workout i did in Monday shows that at least for me the hr response in the interval after 3 min rest was almost the same as the interval after about 10. Logging minutes +/- 90% hr is the ultimate goal. Seiler often quotes the workout from olaf tufte doing 6x10 as his bread and butter in his oly year prep, so 4x8 isnāt supposed to be canonized by the study, but that particular intensity seems to be more beneficial than the other two.
Curiousā¦ if youāre so anti polarized, why keep posting in polarized threads? Iāll try and listen to the fast talk interview but ive never heard seiler in any of the other interviews Iāve listened to say some of the things that you seem to disagree with.
Fired up Jacks last night. First two went well but had some fatigue in the legs and must admit mental tiredness from some long days at work. I drive a computer but brain tired is a thing. Or at least Iām going with that.
Having done a solid 5 x 5 last week and a nice 4 x 8 set of hill repeats this weekend was interested to see how the trainer ride would go. Can see in the picture the first two were good for power but was working a bit too hard by HR. 3rd bout got 3 min in andā¦ nope! Took some respite and plowed on for a couple minutes, another break and finished. Similar pattern for #4
I was not getting off the bike without riding to the end of the 75 min as mental tenacity is something Iām working on along with the legs, heart and lung.
Technically a failed workout but making progress and not unhappy about that at all.
-Mark
(Interval #2 highlighted for no reason)
it would be foolish for me only to comment in threads where I agree with everything; we can learn a lot from other peopleās view points and ideas, and i think weāre all just trying to learn here. So if a thread seems interesting and thereās a reason to comment, I do. Hopefully they donāt come across as thrashing the idea, but having a stance on the subject.
He starts here at 49:30
50:30: wants to help people avoid riding too hard, due to the consequence
he doesnāt care about how zones are calculated, so long as they are anchored in physiology, which Coggan explains earlier why the zones are mental conveniences.
53m: ābuild it up step by stepāā¦āstart simpleāā¦ālearn how to think about zonesāā¦āthen as they get control of the 3 zone model, then we can be a bit more nuancedā.
Enjoy the listen, itās interesting.
1 Like
cool, Iāll give it a listen once Iām finished with last weekās AACC podcast. One thing Iāve picked up from Seiler is that power zones are fairly arbitrary, and RPE/HR are the main prescriptive metrics, while power is measured to track output. As in: RPE/HR is the response, while power is the dose and from what I gather, much of the polarized model is guiding based on a pre-selected response as opposed to a pre-specified dose.
2 Likes
There is probably a reason the best athletes in the world arenāt usually engineers and scientists. While we are debating how long RBI should be, they are out hammering up hills then putting their feet up for a bit and then doing it again a couple days later.
Iām guilty too and have always wanted to find a way to just shut off my brain and push the pedals harder (during races) 
What Iāve taken out of the Seiler stuff is kinda what Iāve known for a long time: Ride as much as I can but only go really hard a couple times a week and go easy on other days. Focus on training for the type of events I want to do well at. Donāt let fixation with a certain āthingā interfere too much with the fact that its a hobby and supposed to be fun. Fun for me happens to be setting PRs and racing TTs well so training well is a fun enabler.
For meā¦ I like the challenge of doing a 4 x 8 workout well on the trainer. If I can do that Iāll be back to a level of performance that will make me happy and will set foundation for more training and then racing next year. It is not that 4 x 8 is magic, its just a fun objective and something to conquer in short term. To my whacked out brain anyway.
Will say that doing 4x8 cleanly at 105% indoors has been much harder than I expected. Thatās good though, when I do it a few times will be more satisfying.
-Cheers - Mark
6 Likes
Just having another browse of the workout library, and it occurred to me after listening to Seilerās Fast Talk podcast again that as important than the 4x[x mins] pattern of intervals is the overall principle of accumulating as much time as possible at an elevated HR (preferably +90% HRmax).
In fact, Iād suggest the most important factors are:
- intervals long enough to get HR high
- rest intervals short enough to keep HR from dropping too far
- suprathreshold intensity
- 30-40 minutes total work with an intensity factor across the intervals of approximately .99 (i.e. hard but not draining)
With that in mind, Iād suggest that Stevens (5x6min @ 105% with 2min rests) might fit the bill very well. Could give it a try this week.
3 Likes
Outside Sunday and did 1x20 and 1x10 at 100-105% accumulated a ton of minutes in the target HR zone and just a bit tired today.
Best 20 min in over a year but still 30w off my historic peaks so long way to go.
This week is vacation so planning lots of fun rides outside. Back at the trainer and 4x8 work in 10 days
Need to sneak in a ramp test soon as well.
yeah, I donāt hear it as much of a graduation, but a calibration towards your own physiological responses instead of using an arbitrary percentage of FTP that is good for a population, but not always good for an individual. I can think of some recent examples of someone doing some extensive endurance training, but were spending 25% of their time in their āzone 3ā HR, even though power was in the level 2 the whole time (overall ride .7 IF).
So I did mostly suffer through that podcast, I personally donāt like their format and editing in how they bounce back and forth with some other peopleās comments. I did get a little chuckle out of Cogganās response to Weber, as if Weber himself doesnāt have the resume to back up his statements.
that one was definitely a bit jumbled, lots of clips from other podcasts
good luck with the training!
OK, so attempt 1 at a block of polarised training. Hereās my HR graph for the last 4 weeks, āzone 1ā is anything up to 75% HRmax. Note that weeks 1 and 4 included a race which accounted for the bulk of time in Z2 (75-87%).
Slightly deeper dive (using Seiler zones), hard session in boldā¦
Week 1: 2.5hrs Z1 turbo, 1.5hrs Z1 turbo, 5hrs Z1 outdoors, 2hrs Z1 outdoors with race opener efforts, RACE (2:20 at 266 NP)
Week 2: 2hrs recovery outdoors, Seiler 4x8min turbo, 2hrs Z1 outdoors, Seiler 4x8min turbo, 5.5hrs Z1 outdoors.
Week 3: 4x6min vo2 session on winter bike, 1hr Z1 turbo, 1hr50min Z1 turbo, 2.5hr club run with 3x8 and 1x4 Seiler-style hill intervals sprinkled in, 2.5hrs Z1 on Zwift.
Week 4: 7x3min vo2 hill reps outdoors, 1hr Z1 turbo, 2hr50min Z1 ride outdoors, 30min turbo race openers, RACE (2:03 at 276 NP)
Conclusions/observationsā¦
- Doing that much volume is hard to schedule, especially when you start a new full-time job half-way through the block, which is why the total hours decline. I ended up basically sacrificing evenings to do 2.5hr Z1 turbo sessions, which arenāt huge fun.
- In a polarised plan, the interval sessions almost come as a relief. After all that slow and steady, youāre really looking forward to getting stuck into some intensity.
- I did feel less sore and fatigued during the week than I did while following a build plan.
- Getting the most out of the 4x8min intervals is hard during the summer on the turbo, you feel like youāre limited by the heat. I did get outdoors, but the only 8 minute hills are some distance away so on weekday evenings I had to compromise and do some 3min efforts instead.
- My NP for the races (both hilly/rolling road races lasting over 2 hours) went from 266 in week 1 to 276 in week 4. Improved FTP, fresher, more motivated?
- I do think I started getting better at maintaining a lower HR during low intensity sessions and not letting it drift. Though an increase in FTP would also explain this.
3 Likes