Racing cat 5 with high w/kg

Racing
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There is a difference between all tests depending on your physiological capabilities.

Testing is for tracking relative progress, but it doesn’t give you as much of an absolute number as you might think, unless you have a very good understanding of your individual physiology.

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For me, Yes. At the times I took the step test I would never of been able to hold that number for an hour let alone 20 mins. I’ve since moved away from that testing protocol and have trained for sustained efforts.

I often see the step test number being thrown around the forums as someone’s ftp but I’m curious how many people can actually hold that number for an hour.

:slight_smile:

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My guess is VERY few people can hold the FTP they use to set training zones for their workouts for 1 hour.

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If you’re nervous in the group but are pretty fit I’d “tail gun” the race. Be at the back and give yourself exit points and stay aware. When it bunches up and you see people free wheeling ahead keep your momentum up on the outside and maybe do a 5 second kick.

If people come with you try to make the break stick. If not just keep doing that.

That’s a pretty safe crit strategy, it will get you a good workout and you’ll start to feel more comfortable in the group the more you do it.

Just make sure you have room to go around the group and attack.

If you watch our youtube videos you can see us do this a lot (Pete’s the master at this). Bonus points if you can do it just after everyone’s been single file for a while, that means they are probably tired.

So you’re either going to be a bit off the back or off the front (solo or in a group). We have a video of me doing this in a 1/2/3 35+ coming out pretty soon (I got 3rd) and it worked pretty well.

Just staying at the front is good advice but it is also hard to achieve. Unless you’re willing to pull the group it’s easy to get swarmed as everyone slows down and then someone attacks and there’s all these people accelerating and crossing wheels and its mayhem.

I’d rather be the person causing the mayhem than the one being in it.

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What Nate said about person causing mayhem than being in it. Ride wither in the top 5 or the back of the pack. And don’t upgrade too quickly. Someone once told me why would you ever want to race a higher level, it gets harder, tongue in cheek, but that’s what we are trying to achieve. W/kg in a Crit I found doesn’t matter too much unless, there is a climb/berg/pinch, your trying to get a breakaway, Because a rider with good skills can still beat you. And in lower Cats its sketchy, the handling skills vary a LOT.

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Couldn’t agree more! Every time there is a thread like this there are a bunch of people saying “stay near the front”, “stay in the top third”, etc. My experience is that this is extremely hard to do, for the simple reason that everybody in the race is trying to do the same thing. My N=1 has been:

  • Sitting in the front third without doing regular pulls is extremely difficult. Having team mates who are doing pulls and giving you wheels helps. Being well known on the local race circuit helps as people are more likely to do you a favour or at least not pi$$ you off if they know you and see you around regularly. And having great handling skills and being comfortable riding shoulder to shoulder and wheel to wheel helps. Somebody who is new to racing likely has none of these things going in their favour!
  • In some races/regions people seem more inclined to respect strong riders and follow wheels. In which case once you’ve done a few turns and established that you’re a contender/contributor and not just a wheelsucker, people will let you back in more easily, see you as a good wheel to follow and are less likely to try and jump in front of you the moment they see a 6 inch gap between your wheel and the wheel in front.
  • In some races/regions people are just ruthless f****ers and don’t give a s**t who you are or whether you’ve just done a monster pull to bring back a break. They won’t let you in unless you force yourself onto a wheel, and if you let even the merest hint of a gap open up in front of you they’ll be trying to come round and force their way into it. I’ve come across a few races like this, typically flat ones with a big field where it’s highly likely to come down to a bunch sprint and everybody thinks they have a shot. I either don’t enter these races, or I give up on the “stay near the front” plan and go for exactly what you’re suggesting. Loiter near the back and take every opportunity to fly off the front, occasionally it sticks and is extremely satisfying (had this recently and got a nice podium), even if it doesn’t at least you’re getting a good workout and making other people do some work to chase you. I’m too old to be taking contact and trading insults trying to hold onto 8th wheel in some race which nobody other than the racers cares about.
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Yes and no; for me, I might set my TrainerRoad FTP slightly higher (~10w) than my true 1-hr power during the cyclocross specialty phase, because I’m proportionally better at shorter efforts and need the extra percentages to really push me to the limit on the shorter-duration/higher-intensity intervals. That’s just easier for me mentally than hitting +3% on every workout every time.

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For every user on TR, you can look at your 60 minute PR chart with the date set to “All Time.” Compare that number to your FTP. I’m going to guess that for 9/10 users the 60 minute number sits nicely under their FTP. The TR graph uses actual power whereas Coggan says to use NP for 1 hour, so there is some discrepancy.

Simply put, I don’t think most can hold their ramp test FTP for 1 hour.

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While I suspect you’re right with most TR users not being able to hold their ftp for an hour, I think looking at the PR chart is flawed. Simply because most people rarely do ftp-like efforts for an hour or longer. The 60min power will be more from endurance or mixed rides.

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60 minutes is really the number not 45. And yes, I believe most people train with FTP’s that they can’t hold for an hour. Is it really an FTP? It is an 8 minute, ramp test or 20 minute estimate of 1 hour power. I’m saying the estimate is higher than actuality.

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I think this is just more proof of concept. Most people rarely do ftp-like efforts for an hour. I agree. Which is why I don’t think that most people are able to do their training FTP for an hour. They simply don’t ever do it. It’s really hard and painful and if you don’t train for it it the endurance is likely not there to accomplish riding for an entire hour at one’s FTP.

So if you don’t use the chart, what would you use to prove your FTP other than an 8 minute, ramp test, or 20 minute test? Those are all going to overstate what MOST people can hold for 1 hour.

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I definitely agree. Part of the problem with doing FTP for 60 minutes is finding somewhere that you can consistently put down power for 60 minutes with enough motivation and no need to let up. Probably the only case I can think of would be a 60 minute Zwift race.

Personally, with a ramp test FTP of 277, the highest average I’ve seen for 60 minutes is about 260 watts. More commonly, I’ll see 60 minute averages around 240 watts. However, I will a lot of times see race situations where my 60 minute average is around 240 watts, but also with an normalized power of just about FTP over the same time period.

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Given the fact that you race and you have NP data out to 60 minutes that roughly equates to your FTP, that would put you in the 1/10 camp IMO.

You could always go to resistance mode in TR and bang out a 1 hour gut buster and see how that equates to your FTP. I’m guessing most people won’t get there.

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I don’t think that most people can ride for approximately 1 hour with the training FTP then :hugs::hugs:

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That’s definitely my point

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I think we are saying the same thing!

:+1:

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I was 4.3 w/kg when I was a 5 and 4. Never won a 5 or 4 race. Just never figured out how to. I got plenty of top 5s and I race large enough crits/races where top 5s can get you to cat 2. But, timing the sprint, when to attack, not doing stupid shit, will pay dividends in regards to how strong you are.

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While it may not conform to the old school idea of “hour power” I don’t see what’s wrong with using a ramp test FTP if it serves the purpose of setting zones for an individual? Especially if it’s someone new to structured training.

It seems that aside from a handful of coaches (Neal, Seiler, etc) most everyone has moved on. I had WKO5 try to tell me my mFTP is basically my 30min power and other models have done the same.

I should mention I set my FTP based on hour power, but don’t think everyone needs to do the same.

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It’s been said many times in the TR forum, FTP isn’t what a person can hold for 1 hour exactly. It can vary per rider, and can be anything from 40 to 70 mins or more.

However, some folk in their wisdom thought it would be “fun” to compare the ramp test ftp estimate with an actual hour of power (silly people!):

I got sick two days after my effort and had to take a week off! Not sure if was a coincidence or as a result of going that hard for an hour.

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You have to train your ftp to hold it for that “hour” +/-.
Just like how most would struggle jumping into a 3x20 it’s a system that gets trained. Perfect for setting zones. Most people outside of TTers are going to need to ride around that wattage for around that time period so they don’t continually train to do that.

1 Like