I prefer the shorts as well… But I also find that I need a very high progression level compared to Threshold work. I’m currently able to do 4.9 VO2max sessions fairly easily, but find 2.7 Threshold sessions really difficult and therefore assume that I’ll benefit more from the longer intervals.
6x2min at ~122% of FTP with cadence 120rpm, I can achieve 7min above 93% of HRmax. Isn’t it VO2max?
"Work intervals should be close to VO₂ max and last 3-5 minutes. It takes at least two minutes to reach your VO₂ max, so this time range exposes the body to work at this high intensity. Intervals longer than five minutes will cause too much fatigue and exercise form may deplete. "
ok, this was shared with me from a coach friend, the 2min mark (figure 3) is where they start finding peak oxygen consumption https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356469064_Increasing_Oxygen_Uptake_in_Cross-Country_Skiers_by_Speed_Variation_in_Work_Intervals
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How do y’all feel about pairing Supra threshold workouts 7-9mins with 3-5 minute Vo2 workouts during a block? Or is it better to do strictly vo2 during the “vo2 block”?
My takeaway: both approaches work, but for highly trained athletes, focused VO2max block might be more beneficial.
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I’ll check that episode out, thank you
I always find that 30/15 and 40/20 workouts end up feeling much more like O/Us or hard threshold efforts by the end of the session. I’ve never found them terribly effective, though YMMV.
I still think there’s room here for good old-fashioned hill repeats. I have a nice, quiet climb that takes me just under 4m flat out. Doing sets of that keeping the time between 4.15 and 4.20 is a decent challenge. It’s also quite a technical descent, so you get practice at that skill too.
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Makes sense.
Took a look at workout that brought as example earlier – during 1st interval did not reach there but during following intervals, spent 40-60sec above 93% of HRmax each. It is cadence that pushes HR so high so quickly. Power was actually relatively low, I can do repeated 2min intervals at 130%+.
EDIT: but I do agree with your bigger point: longer intervals seem to be more beneficial and I don’t bother with <3min intervals anymore.
I’m with you.
There’s one perfect for me, 4:30 min, 5 min from home, but busy. Early in the morning, on weekends, might work, but I don’t like it.
Then I have another one 20 min away. That’s more than ideal. Quiet, step, 4 min. Awesome, and, also, makes a 20/30 easy spin to go home. That’s definitely my place.
I also like to use the same workout that I adapt after every ride. I started with a 30/30 base at vo2power, and modified the high and low duration to keep my heartrate between 90% and 95% of max HR.
First intervals are 2min on, 17s off, 40s on, 17s off, 36s on, 19s off… Last intervals are 30s on, 24s off and their average power is in sweetspot territory, but it’s enough to keep my heartrate high.
Last time I did it I had 10m30s above 90% max HR.
It’s pretty personal and took a few iterations to get on these values that are working for me. Now I just up the high power intensity for the next ride. I see a good progression, but I never did a lot of VO2 so it’s probably newbie gain.
It’s pretty easy on me, I can repeat that multiple times a week without any issue. If I do long max efforts It can take days to recover.
It’s highly customizable.
- You can add more repeats at the end as heartrate is under control. Last repeats are not really more difficult than the others.
- You can change high or low power.
- You can change interval and rest durations.
- You could have every intervals with different power if you prefer to keep the same duration.
- You can make it as hard or as easy as you want.
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I agree with much of said above. Don’t overthink it, and I agree that no need to really ‘progress’ the workouts much. Find a workout that does the job and let the power be the progression. Similar to many I find 30/30 (and similar) preferable…as easier but FAR less effective for me. What works (again…for me) are longer intervals. I tend to stick with 4 x 5 mins or 5 x 4 mins at whatever power I’m able to repeat and just about finish (aim to basically have to quit final interval part way through about 30-50% of the time!). This usually works out at about 110-115% FTP but this is more the result it ends at rather than a target.
If not done v02 for a while I’ll likely do 1-2 workouts with say 6x3mins then move quickly to 5x4mins and 4x5mins as quick as possible.
Say 2 a week, rest pretty easy, maybe 1 sweet spot (90%) every other week but that’s it. Do that for say 4 weeks and see how I’m going. I HATE these, feel like death…but don’t half work!!!
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5x5 is the pinnacle, 25 min TiZ is pretty hard, specially if done correctly.
I read here a while ago to set the vo2 to 95% of your best 5 min (recently done), and it’s spot on for me.
This thread is worth re-posting for a read. Good discussion here from earlier this year.
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Our most recent episode of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast touches on VO2 max interval structure if you’re interested. 
There are, of course, different purposes for different VO2 max workouts, which is why there are those different styles of VO2 max workouts in the first place. Various VO2 max workouts in the TR Workout Library will differ in duration and intensity so they can be paired up with your current fitness levels and your goals. If you’re just starting out, it may be best to begin with shorter, less intense VO2 efforts before working your way into higher intensities at longer, sustained durations.
I was not aware that there are “different purposes” for different VO2max workouts. What would those purposes be? Is that discussed in the podcast episode? Is there a written reference somewhere I can check out for more depth/detail on the matter?
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A couple thoughts and questions on this thread:
I thought I was the only one who did this🤘 In my case I often build a “destination” workout i.e. 2x60 at tempo and then do the portions of it I can manage, or break it up into intervals until I arrive at completion. It’s a nice way to measure progress other than FTP, etc.
Is this true? Like, if your RPE is high, but BPM and/or breathing rate aren’t at vo2, are you still achieving the results you intended. I’d love an elaboration/expansion on this. I’ve quit on vo2 workouts in the past because I thought (perhaps mistakenly?) that if you can’t achieve a certain level of work, you weren’t getting vo2-intended benefit, and thus I do as much as I can and then turn it in order to not bury myself for other productive workouts down the line…
Also — I think a lot of people talk past one another when discussing the efficacy of 30/30s and the like. In my opinion, for these short duration vo2 intervals to “work” (particularly on a well trained cyclist) execution matters. If you are riding to a watt target, they probably aren’t working up unless that watt target is sufficiently high. 30/30s are one where you jest put the tape over the power meter and as hard as you can and look at the power output later. Yes, the power has to be repeatable, but I think the importance of execution gets lost when discussing their effectiveness.
My 2c. I’m not a coach or a physiologist,
It will primarily depend on the type of VO2 effort you’re looking to excel at. It could be for shorter efforts, such as climbs that last from 30 seconds to a couple of minutes, or it could be for sustained suprathreshold efforts that are above FTP for 10+ minutes at a time.
It boils down to the principle of specificity, or training for the demands of your goal(s). A crit racer or a cyclocross racer’s approach to VO2 max work will probably be different than a road racer’s, as an example.
The discussion on the podcast goes into this as well!
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Our energy systems are a series of scales not switches. Some vo2max sessions will work at the threshold/vo2max end where as others will be vo2max/anaerobic.
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I am not a fan of 30/30s, Tabata, etc. While the oxygen delivery side is important (i.e. HR 90%+ of max), it’s also important to develop the oxygen use side too (i.e. muscle cells taking in the O2 which is then used to fuel contractions which create the mechanical work that actually moves the pedals). IMO the super short intervals neglect too much of the second part of the equation; thus 3 to 5 minute efforts are better. When you hit a 4 minute as hard as you can go 10% hill no one is going to sit up and soft pedal after 30 seconds.
I think longer rest periods that ensure you can push the power and are easy to track are ideal: 3 minute effort, 7 minute rest (so you start an interval every 10 minutes); 4 minute effort, 6 minute rest (so you start an interval every 10 minutes); 5 minute effort, 10 minute rest (so you start an interval every 15 minutes). Of course, there is a place for intervals that target recovery rather than crushing power targets, but I think those are of lesser concern.
Progression-wise, I would do something like the below, which provides blocks of intensity alternating with blocks of duration, both of which are important components of VO2 work. Note: my supra-threshold efforts are a single 30 minute effort starting at 97.5%, moving up in increments to 107.5%, then coming back down incrementally to 97.5%; at some point I’ll start at 100% and move up to 110%).
3 weeks: 5x3 @ 120%
3 weeks: Sweetspot or supra-threshold with durations of 15-30 minutes
3 weeks: 5x3.5 @ 120%
3 weeks: SS or supra-threshold with durations of 15-30 minutes
3 weeks: 5x4 @ 120%
3 weeks: SS or supra-threshold with durations of 15-30 minutes
3 weeks 5x4.5 @ 120%
3 weeks: SS or supra-threshold with durations of 15-30 minutes
3 weeks 5x5 @ 120%
And remember, giving up during an interval is 99% mental - when you say to yourself “I can’t”, acknowledge the fact that you said it, but… Just. Keep. Pedaling. Train yourself so that your response to those negative thoughts is simply to turn the cranks another rotation. Hurts so good!
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