It overestimates because the original concept of hunter is to do an all out 5’ effort and not 110%.
For me an all out effort is 130% FTP.
Seiler did not do efforts based on FTP however I’ve never heard of anyone with a proper FTP-number doing more than 102-107% of their FTP for 8 minutes. Especially not with only 2 minutes rest in between sets. The idea is to have even numbers in your intervals i.e. not dropping substantially the last 2 sets.
I have experimented with this for a little while and to keep HR as high as possible for the whole duration of the intervals/workout I ended up using power numbers that went from 110% at the start of the interval and dropped to 101% at the end of the interval. This kept HR above 91% and was doable with only 2 mins rest.
I did it twice a week for a month and went from 260ftp to 282. The only downside was that as I do the 8 min test for my FTP (don’t do well at ramp for various reasons) it felt like I got too good at 8 min long efforts and over tested.
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What did the rest of your week look like? Were these sessions the only ones with intensity?
After 2 of those workouts I was ruined so just a couple of gentle outside rides on my own. To be more accurate it was 8 weeks between tests but the first 4 weeks I didn’t do much-structured stuff, second 4 weeks I did these. What was interesting was after the 282 test I did some group rides and was crap, kept getting dropped on little climbs.
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Tell you what - we know how to have fun!
As I’m training for road races I’d probably only do this once a week and do some anaerobic intervals for my other session. Definitely a danger you could just turn into an FTP diesel monster.
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There are certainly worse problems to have then this one! 
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I haven’t done Seiler but I’ve done Jacks+1 which is 4x8min at 105% with 4min rest and I found it really hard so I’d imagine the RPE for Seiler is right up there.
Seiler advocates a 60m effort for calculating FTP. In the overwhelming majority of people this is going to give a lower estimate than a Ramp, 2x8 or 20m test. There’s plently of evidence elsewhere on this forum about estimation of sustainable power. which I won’t get into here, but while the short tests are fine for setting power for TR plans/workouts and have advantages in terms of repeatability, its important to differentiate the measures as we’re comparing different data sets. Seiler’s threshold measure in this case is 4mmol Lactate, which is more of a 60m proxy, and probably a good 3-7% lower than the estimate you’d get from a short test.
I reckon his 106% from the data at the top is likely to be more around 100% of most people’s ramp tested number. Hence why some may people say they tried and failed to do these workouts…
Since his subjects were able to do it week in week out over the course of the study, it seems very likely that the workouts are not quite as high power as many here are advocating.
Also note the Standard deviations of 8-9% on the power reported.
Adding this to his numbers the top of the thread…
4x16m at 97% > likely to be around 88-95% of ramp test. Sweetspot!
4x8m at 106% > likely to be around 97-104% of ramp test. Threshold!
4x4m at 118% > likely to be around 109-116% of ramp test. VO2max!
So there’s nothing really revolutionary there, no magic bullet, its just your usual SS/FTP/VO2 interval work, with the kind of total work duration you’d expect for those intensities.
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I would say the term FTP is used ambiguous and so the derived intensity description for the intervals. For example i can ride 4x8 with 108% MMP60, but i can’t do it easily for (MMP20*0,05)*1,08.
However, in the Seiler study the used the maximal ISO-effort method. So there is no need to refer FTP to control the intensity. If one just made a test then maybe values 100% MMP20 - 108% MMP60 are a good guess for what is doable for 4x8(2)
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yes, I’m planning to try the max sustained 4x8-min outside because it only requires ~3 miles of open road (depending on wind and grade), lap feature on bike computer, and a ‘best guess’ at power based pacing.
100% MMP60 and 95% MMP20 should not be equal, based on the logic of the 20 minute test, and clearly aren’t in your case. The 20 minute test has an ‘all out’ 5 minute effort prior to the 20 minute effort which should make the average significantly lower than MMP20.
Mike
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I have Dicks up next. 5x8 mins at 105%. This is on the upper end of the range (maybe above) Seiler advocates for.
The ramp test over-estimates for me, so I’m guessing I’ll have to dial the intensity down a little to complete the workout.
As designed, Dicks will likely get my HR well above 90% max, and i think it effectively will be a VO2 max workout despite not being in traditional VO2 territory.
Finally got around to doing it this morning.
Made a custom workout with 4x8 @ 105% - with caveat that my last FTP increase was estimated rather than tested.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/martinheadon/rides/57160826
Completed it with 2 backpedal breaks (when I reached 95% HRmax) - 10 seconds in interval 3, and an annoyingly extended one in interval 4 as erg mode wouldn’t play ball for a bit.
First observation is that I felt like my legs were the limiter, which makes sense as I did a 166 TSS anaerobic / vo2 session on Thursday night, i.e. less than 48 hours before. My breathing was certainly high but I was never gasping like I do in 3min interval sessions.
Second observation: I’ve been ill recently, and I think my HR might still be slightly elevated. But even so, I managed 21:49 total time >90%HRmax, of which 10:13 was 93% or above.
Third observation is that I felt strangely fresh afterwards. Fuelled well, had recovery, and I’ve been doing household tasks without feeling the need to collapse into bed at any minute. Whether this is because of the nature of the session, or because I didn’t push myself enough, I’m not sure.
Plan is now to take 2 easy days and try it again on Tuesday. With fresher legs and the knowledge that I can do the watts without destroying myself, I’m hoping to push through and not be so quick to bailout.
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Try it not in ERG mode as well maybe?
Why?
These are supposed to be self paced, that way you can just back off slightly instead of backpedaling.
Sorry, but I think people are obsessing way too much over this “self-paced” thing. That really isn’t the important factor, it just happens to be the way Seiler ran the test.
The vital thing is that you maximise your time at <90%HR across 4 8-minute intervals. Which is what I did. I know my limits and I know that 105% is a realistic target, as my first attempt proved. If it’s getting too hard or too easy the intensity buttons or backpedal breaks are on hand.
All that matters is that you get the work done, and I’d much rather close my eyes and pedal through it while listening to my “4 minute songs” playlist, than expend a load of mental energy looking at power numbers and trying to figure out if I’m going hard enough or not.
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