Congrats, that’s impressive stuff! What are you training for and what part of the season are you in? - i.e. how far out from your A race?
Thanks! I’m just training in general for road races, this was only my first season racing in the Finnish category 2 (which is closer to cat3 in the US, I believe). My A races are three hilly one-hour criteriums and a couple 2-3h rolling road races. The first races are in April, so this is base season, just building endurance and TTE.
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Haven’t read everything in this thread but any thoughts on how to do the appropriate progression with TR workouts.
Have done Spruce -2 (2x20) going by TR PLs next would be Round Bald -1, Seneca Rocks (both 3x15) and then Mount Hayes -4 and Tray Mountain -2 (3x12), Anteope -1 (5x10) and then Spruce -1 (2x25).
Got Eichorn +2 ( 2 x 20 at 94%) as a breakthrough in my plan last January and it tore my legs off, had to turn down the intensity half way through the first interval.
I like to go from 2x20 to 2x25, but 3x15 is fine.
Next block for sweet spot I’m doing 3x17~ 3x20 and then try and push 3x25. So far with sweet spot I can increase 1+ PL with sweet spot. I’m only doing 1 sweet spot workout a week and 1 threshold. I’m hoping the get my threshold tte to 60 mins and SS tte to 75± by the end of the next block.
yeah with Sweet Spot I’m willing to progress faster than with threshold for many people. Like well over 10% time in zone is fine. I usually do 60 then 70 or 72 min, sometimes 75. For some people though, I might have to cap out at 60-75 min and then it becomes more about combining intervals and such to end the progression. So a 4x15 might work itself into a 2x30 or so, etc. normally I wouldn’t focus on that, rather preferring actual time in zone, but it’s still a progression.
Lots of options… for a Cat 3 doing hilly 1hr Crits or 2-3hr road races, I’d probably cap the progression at 90 min, tops. A solid 3x30 would work, a 1x90 is cool too… but usually that happens when I program the 3x30 and I or someone just skips the rest to get it over with!
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Huh, seems I have been doing it wrong: using TBHV 1+2 and filling empty days with SS “progression” (1-2days/week). But instead of increasing time, I have been decreasing number of intervals with 7x10 → 6x12 → 5x15 → 4x20 so far, and only now will get into actually meaningful TiZ increase with 3x30, and then starts TBHV3 with its own AT guided SS progression.
At least it has not been wasted effort, hopefully will get some TTE out of it 
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It’s still a progression, and obviously depends on where people are coming from. But yeah, most of my athletes will work up to 80-90min at SST, some I will push out to 2hrs (ultra endurance guys or stage race prep). I generally will start them at 45-60min just to reduce overall load, and then progress time over a month or two.
Nothing wrong with what you’re doing, just not my approach.
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To be honest, I wasn’t thinking ahead enough, simply wanted to fill those free days. But now I realize, this way I’ll probably plateau too fast. Hopefully AT still can find some way to progress 
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I have posted this before, or very similar, not sure if it was in this thread or the one that got deleted that had some great stuff in it, anyway…
Based on a TEE of 48 minutes,
I go, based on TiZ progression…
75% of TEE = 36’
100% of TEE =48’
125% of TEE = 60’
150% of TEE=72’
175% of TEE = 84’ (some times skip to 90’ instead of 84’)
200% of TEE = 96’
225% of TEE = 108’
250% of TEE = 120’
all 90 - 92%
These were worked out as TEE x Percentage (updated the text above to represent this now.)
Week 1 75%,
Week 2 100%,
Week 3 125%,
Week 4 150%, etc.
I’ll do two of the variations in the table (below) in a week for each TiZ (maybe the 3x and 2x or 2x and 1x) and then up to the next TiZ the following week.
It is surprising how quickly one can progress.
If you are decently train 175% - 180% of TEE for SST shouldn’t be a problem so starting at 75% and progressing by 25% a week your tolerance and fitness builds so by the time you get to 175% plus you’ve moved on ability wise.
I don’t normally go beyond 200% or TiZ96 but have a few times when training for a 100 mile road race, Grand Fondo Qualifiers and the World championship where I got to the 250% in training for them.
Normally 90 - 108 minutes is plenty.
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I am usually less gentle. When it comes to sst (I use 90-92%). I start with 60 min TiZ. My assumption is, no matter what my TTE is, it has to be over 40min. So with 10% lower intensity 60 min is resonable for me.
Usually it goes as:
3x20, 4x20, 2x30, 2x40, 2x40 where I ignore rest part because I do not want to go out of the mental zone, 3x30, 1x90 (for fun), 1x120 (only occasionally - “because I can” workout).
I do not bother with sst <60min. If I have less time I do threshold. If I do not feel good enough for threshold or longer sst it means that I shouldn’t do any intensity.
I do not tell that it’s good or bad approach but when it comes to sst I belive in bigger jumps as I feel nutrition is always main limiter for me (especially outside the bike).
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Is there a reason to do SST instead of threshold progressions? Is it just less risk of burn out? More time in the saddle? Do people go ss to threshold to vo2, or straight to vo2 after a long ss progression?
I just started working on trying to wind out my threshold with the plan to move to a vo2 block with enough time to recover before stage races start. I’m already cutting it close, but thinking ahead to next time I try this and wondering if I should start with sweet spot instead.
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Because generally SST brings the same endurance adaptations of threshold training but with physically slightly less fatiguing work. Your time at FTP will go up from doing SST, just like it would go up from doing work at strictly threshold.
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I do threshold with sst, never only sst. I have tried only sweet spot approach but I was missing ability to put power closer to thershold and vo2 max. That’s why I mix steady sst with sst with bursts and threshold workouts.
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Would it not depend on the phase of training you are in?
It seems a bit early to include treshold with a tempo/sweet spot progression when you are still in a base phase, does it not?
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Ok let’s assume one can complete a 1x55-60 at 89-90% of in-season ftp even before officially starting base phase.
What should they do next during base phase?
Wondering whether working already on vo2 as this is the main limiter might make more sense during indoor months.
Why? It’s good aerobic training for all year round. Base training is all types of aerobic training,. If I had more time for training volume, then of course doing a huge block of Z2 would be fine, but you have to overload your body with volume. If you are time-limited doing the same hours without intensity and with intensity does nothing in the “base phase”, so some intensity will provide additional stimulus. And aerobic is aerobic - as long you can recover properly it’s all fine.
I do not have 12+h week for focusing on volume so I have to include intensity to make some progress. The same way after building tte comes vo2 max block, even if it’s january of february. Then repeat.
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if vo2 is the type of stimulus one needs to increase ftp, then it’s always an appropriate time to do it. I think TR has put so much focus on base-build-specialty that so many people associate higher intensity largely as race prep.
anyhow, I know two guys, who coincidentally have the same coach and they both did vo2 blocks recently, and now both of their ftps are up by like 20w each. and now there’s a better way to go into 2024 building tte over a newly increased threshold
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Here is very nice article from @SpareCycles about sustainable training:
And today’s That Triathlon Show also touches this subject:
And also discussion with Kolie Moore and CTS:
Basically, it’s all about building your aerobic engine. And, assuming, you do not have 15h+ for your training then you have to find gains elsewhere. You can manipulate the amount of intensity and recovery, and interplay between volume and intensity in different phases or rather specificity of intensity.
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But in those cases. Should we first not look where ftp is situatued towards Vo2max power? So first move the curve too the right bye extending TTE (sst, treshold). And then a vo2 block to pull the curve up?
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