I am not even sure my question is fit-related, but here it goes:
I have had quite bad wrist pain when riding my good bike outside a lot (and it never happens when I ride it on the trainer). It feels like a nerve is injured and at its worse I couldn’t even turn my car keys to start the ignition because of the pain. I had it neurologically checked but the check was some weeks later and they were not able to find anything. They said it could be that I repeatedly get small hits on the carpal tunnel which may lead to injury.
After a lot of head scratching, I have a theory on where this may be coming from. I like to ride sometimes on the flats with my palm flat downwards so that my fingers go around the hood and the ball of the palm sits on the bend of the bars (between the hoods and the flat section at the tops). Given that these bars are relatively thin (Deda Zero100) and I am using a relatively thin bar tape (I think fizik 2mm) the bars are relatively hard at that position and it might be that road vibrations are causing the problem.
What do you think does this sound reasonable? I don’t have the issue on my other bike with a slightly different bar shape (ritchey logic 2 I think) and thicker bar tape. Would you try with a thicker bar tape or just replace the bar altogether?
Simple solution - get a car with a push Start button. Problem solved.
Seriously, though…the analysis definitely seems reasonable. You may need to explore different bars, gloves, tape options. Fit could also be part of it if you have too much weight forward in your hands.
Apparently, my issues mostly disappeared when the fitter shortened my reach by 2 cm and dropped the stem by 2 cm. I had a recurring wrist pain (cyclist’s palsy but also palm pain).
Actually my fit on the bike I have the problem on, is 1cm higher and 2cm longer than the other bike, but I feel way more comfortable in that position – the other bike (where I don’t have the issue) had the fork steerer cut too short when I bought it so I need to have it a bit lower than I want to.
But “cyclists palsy” is a very good pointer – I didn’t know this was common, I will read up on it.
Curious how you start off with determining saddle height. I’ve long thought my saddle height was dialed and I’ve always been one to easily conform to different fits w/o seeing any injuries or discomforts. However, last season I noticed a knee injury very late in the season and the major differentiator was racing CX on a new frame.
I’ve taken care of that injury, and now I’m feeling some after-ride soreness in the other knee (!!!). Aside from continuing my PT prescribed strength training program I’ve also started to explore a range of saddle heights.
Historically I’ve gone with the Lemond method and played around within +/- 5mm from that baseline. As mentioned, it served me well.
The new pain is coming from the bottom of the patella tendon, around the tibial tuberosity (hallmark of osgood schlatter) and have read that too low a saddle can increase tibial forces due to more sever knee flexion at the bottom and top of pedal stroke. Therefore I’ve been testing out a higher saddle, going from 84cm up to 85.5cm to see if a reduced knee angle would help. It hasn’t.
All this is to ask, what’s your method for determining optimal saddle height?
There is likely variation between fit methodologies, but for the Body Geometry system that I was taught, we aim for a leg at full extension between a 25-35* range. That can differ a bit for some systems that are measured statically vs dynamically.
Static measurement is usually done by a second person (the fitter) with a extendable goniometer.
Ok, I’ve always fell within a 30-35º range between my lowest (84cm) and highest (85.5cm) saddle height. I suspect I’d have to get into the upper 80’s to find a 30º flexion at 6 o’clock. I feel like I’d have some major toe-point though.
I thought this was an interesting study that explores forces on the knee with regards to saddle height:
In short, as long as you’re not extremely low or extremely high, there likely won’t be a big difference in how height impacts or contributes to knee pain. Which is kind of what I’m discovering.
Cool, I will have to make time for that study, but your summary aligns with my experience. Close counts, and most people seem able to function around +/-5mm from what might be considered the “perfect / right” saddle height.
Extremes are best to avoid and I suggest 3-5mm changes for people to test and see it is a move in a positive direction. Sounds like just what you are doing which is great. It may be that the source of your current pain is something other than saddle height.
100% likely. I moved it up to the highest I have ever had it at 86cm. The following screenshots are at 290-300w. Angles seem within the accepted range. Will go for a ride and see how it feels.
Yeah, I don’t think I’d try much higher, but that looks workable. The one caution I mention as people get to the upper limit is to be cautious about potential of heel drop.
It can happen under hard loads and specially when we get tireed and a bit sloppy. That can lead to overextended knee joint and/or Achilles tendon. I did that at one point and landed a nice tendon pain for weeks.
I’d rather have a rider too low vs too high in general, but it’s good to experiment.
Likewise. Injured my Achilles in 2019 which is what prompted me to lower my saddle in the first place. A couple sore knees and 2 seasons later I’m back to fiddling with it. My theory is that reduced knee extension at the downstroke is putting more force on the Patellafemoral joint which is creating soreness at the front of the knee. Hopefully a 1.5cm increase can help with this.
Seems to me your knee is a long way in front of your pedal spindle. @mcneese.chad thoughts on this?
That would quite often align with front of knee pain. Your saddle height looks pretty good to me, except that your toe is ever so slightly pointed, as pointed out, when tour calves fatigue there’s a risk of an effective seat height increase as your heel drops.
I have heard it’s safer to be slightly to low than too high. I’m finding that I’m a lot more reliably niggle free these days after dropping a smidge.
The two pics posted are not the best ones to judge that. Checking fore-aft placement usually is best with the cranks horizontal. Admittedly, I was curious about that placement too, but didn’t ask for a better pic since that wasn’t part of the question.
Fair, it might be fine from the proper angle. I know @anthonylane has limitations of his small frame to consider. I have a feeling saddle might have come forward in the search for aero gains and was just concerned. Front of knee pain immediately made me think knee to far forward, but that might steer my observations thereafter.
I’m no fitter though. I am injury prone however and have experienced the results of these issues years ago.
I always thought KOPS was when the pedal was at 9 o’clock (in this instance) of the down stroke. You can sort of see here that my knee cap is about an inch, give or take, from being over the spindle. So really it’s behind it.
No worries. Chasing what is contributing to an over-use injury can be really hard. I rode my first 20K mi with not a single knee or joint issue, then all of a sudden late last season my left knee started with a very gradual ache. Which I sorted (and am still sorting) out with PT, but now my right knee is acting up.
Oddly, this is the least hours/training I’ve done at this point in any season and despite a considerable drop in hours I’m having additional biomechanical issues. The irony is that one knee has gotten better i while focusing on lower body strength, but now the other knee is acting up.
