Longer?
These are very, very short, almost down to long VO2max intervals and definitely do-able at suprathreshold.
^ This, thank goodness a voice of reason, I was starting wonder what I’d missed, read the OP a few times to make sure I wasn’t being dim.
I would recommend doing a 20 min test, or the Kolie Moore test. You’re going to over-test in a Ramp Test due to your ability to punch out VO2+ at the end.
There’s a few things here, and don’t disagree that dialing back the target power a little in order to do longer intervals is the logical next step.
I guess my 2p/2c is that until you have a good long base of aerobic fitness, this kind of steady-state work is likely (not always, but likely) to be tougher than your FTP is calculated from ramp tests or otherwise. Don’t stress about it, and if the rest of your zones are producing workouts that are achievable I wouldn’t change your FTP just because this type of interval length and intensity is challenging.
Secondly, I do think a lot comes down to mental perception - once you have worked up to 15-20 minute intervals and you can 40+ minutes time in zone, I bet you will start to see them in a different light.
Lastly, I can’t remember where this was cited (probably Kholie’s podcast), but holding something around FTP for 50-60 minutes isn’t some massive physiological or psychological leap from say, 2 x 20. It’s practice, and building up to that level of sustained effort. I bet the majority of people on this forum could hold their FTP for that kind of period if they did a specific progression to get there. Why you would want to outside of a 40km TT or even alpine mountain climbing, I’m not sure…
Good luck and embrace the challenge!
I would caveat that setup can have a big impact. 20 minute threshold intervals fill me with dread on the indoor trainer, I’ve stopped doing them as I know I’ll fail them or have to expend so much mental energy to get through them that I’ll likely skip a day or two of training after. But I have no problem doing 40 minutes or longer at threshold on an outdoor climb. Same power meter, same position, I have a rocker plate and a decent fan setup indoors. I think the issue is the constant watts with no variation. Not helped by doing my indoor workouts in erg mode. Outdoors you get those slight variations in gradient leading to more variety in cadence, power, the occasional micro break if there’s a sharp hairpin or a little dip in the road. I find over unders in erg mode easier. And I’ve done ~45 minute zwift races which have ended up with average around threshold but again with little breaks and surges and valuations in gradient to break it up.
The answer in my case is probably to use slope mode instead of erg mode and add a bit more variety in. But I do also like to just watch TV and not have to stare at power numbers! So I’ve settled for just not doing those steady long threshold efforts indoors, I’ll either do them outside or I’ll pick an over under or something else with more variety that I can get through.
The thing is that I haven’t picked an FTP that’s too high for me out of thin air to feel good about myself, I’m just rolling with what the AI has given me. So I’m not quite sure what you mean by this?
I thought my original question was quite clear.
Hmm, well all my workouts currently are threshold ints because that’s what polarised base prescribes 
My baseline for threshold when I was using TR was
PL 4.0, if I can’t complete one of those my ftp is too high. And when I say complete, I mean it should not feel like I did an all out effort. Lowering your ftp sounds bad but in the long run you’ll be better off.
Yes it was… was just checking I had missed anything… the statement was more about myself and some of the replies didn’t seem to entirely match imo.
Drop your ftp 5% (10 watts) and start progressing would be my recommendation, but that is just me.
Could you do 2x 10’ with 1 minute rest inbetween or 1x 20’ at 215-220w?
Oh I see. Thanks. It would be interesting to try 1x20, but for that I’d probably have to take it down to less than 95%. Once upon a time I did 20’ tests quite regularly, but then the ramp tests gave me a way out, and then the AI gave me a way out of those. Maybe it’s time to woman up and just bash out a longer test.
Ah, yes. This is totally understandable! It is easier mentally to have some variations within a session on the indoor trainer.
There is a different aspect to this as well which must not be ignored. The difference between outdoor FTP and indoor FTP. In this blog post you can read about a recent study regarding this subject: Indoor and outdoor power is not interchangeable - W/KG .
For my own part I have operated with around 3-4% lower FTP indoors compared to outdoors. On the rare occation when I ride indoors during summer it is more than this, and I am pretty sure that the difference compared to training indoors during winter is down to heat build-up and humidity. Prior to reading that blog post, and doing some “research” on the topic, I was sure all the discrepancy between indoor and outdoor was due to heat and humidity, but it might not seem to be the case.
The point is, the 20 min efforts indoors might be mentally harder both due to boredom or lack of mental distractions, but also due to them actually being performed above threshold.
Not in reply directly to cartsman:
I understand what you are trying to say, but in my world threshold power, or FTP, is an intensity or power that you are able to sustain for around one hour when fresh. Of course, I agree that TTE at FTP is trainable, but still, you should be able to hold your currently set threshold power for at least 40 minutes when fresh no matter where you are in your training cycle. If you start defining threshold as anything different then that you start getting into trouble. Especially if you are training lots of hours. You will dig yourself a hole pretty quick…
Reply to this and “The thing is that I haven’t picked an FTP that’s too high for me out of thin air to feel good about myself, I’m just rolling with what the AI has given me.”
I understand, and I believe you. If you are struggling with workouts, or failing them, then you won’t feel very good about yourself anyway.
This is how I see it from the outside: You started doing ramp tests because you didn’t want to do 20min tests, and when Ai detection came you put your trust in Ai. Understandable. Not everyone loves suffering, and it is seemingly very convenient. Even if I enjoy suffering, I love convenience. So, I can sort of relate. But, the problem here is that the Ai gives you an inflated FTP number, and you are now struggling completing workouts.
It’s the burning in my legs, i.e. lactate build up, that limits me, I believe. I don’t give up as such, just dial down the watt target or take breaks, but it is demoralising. This feeling occurs because you are working above threshold. I think you know this deep inside based on your original post.
You really don’t have a lot of options here. 1. You can continue on suffering in spite. 2. Lower your FTP manually, and see how it goes. 3. You do proper testing.
“when fresh” is very important in the discussion. You’re effort is approaching that of an ftp test (depending on the rest interval lengths and total time at threshold), and completing it, especially not fresh, shouldn’t be easy.
The AI ftp could easily be a little high. For me, there is a very clear point when I’m over threshold and that quad burn is persistent. I can ease up just a hair (to just below threshold) and it goes away. But I can also stay in it to train that suprathreshold effort.
I’m a little unclear on when you are feeling like you have to dial it back… is it during each of the 7-9 minute intervals or toward the end of the total? If it’s during each interval, I’d lean more to ftp too high. If you’re making it to the last one (maybe 2), I’d lean toward pushing through as long as I could.
I found the same and have been working on this the last few weeks. I started by taking about 8% bump down in FTP - this was suggested by AI-FTP but was in the ballpark for where I felt it would be anyway. I loaded the POL base plan and let it suggest the first few threshold workouts: Muah → Frissell → Madison. After Madison it just kept suggesting more 7/8 minute intervals which wasn’t of interest to me so I’ve started searching for workouts that go slightly longer each time. Last week I did Ruskin (3x10), today I’m doing 3x12 and in 4 weeks I should be at 4x15. Once I’m there I’m going to reassess how I’m feeling and what I want to work on.
You say short vo2 feels too easy - which ones are you doing? At a 2.3 I’m guessing you’re getting lots of 30/30s or float sets? Try 2+ minute intervals and see how those feel.
Interesting. But this is not what we are doing. It seems the cyclists in that study self-selected their power to make it through each of the time targets.
What you do with TR for trainer rides is that the trainer sets the power target via ERG mode and the rider has to comply as long as he can or the interval ends.
To assess if there is a difference for this inside/outside, they would have needed to also fix the power and measure TTE.
Some good thoughts for your consideration are posted above. I’ll say a few words of some things not touched on yet…
Your background is a little too high level, for example if it were me, I would ask myself if during the ultra event did I only ride at low endurance for 3 weeks? At least for myself, I’m far better off doing some intervals (structured or unstructured) above threshold every week of the year. Otherwise I feel “stale” and find it difficult to complete longer hard efforts. Coaches talk about doing too much tempo, well, this is a similar line of thinking and for myself its possible to do too much z1/z2 if that is all I’m doing. There needs to be a balance between endurance and high-intensity.
Secondly, and I’ll preface by saying I haven’t seen the MV polarized base plan, I wouldn’t program a polarized base with “lots of 7-9’ intervals at 95-100%.” Some coach might, mine wouldn’t, and TR clearly does or has for you thru the AT engine (which can also be AT’s response to having a too high FTP). FWIW I’ve found other workouts to be far more productive with easier recovery (less fatigue), and of course because of that I prefer reading training tips from coaches that align with what I’ve found works better for me. And short vo2max too easy means you must be doing it by % FTP, rather than actually doing them repeatable full-gas.
Food for thought.
Thanks yes, the 30/30s were easy and 60/60 too. But others on this forum have also reported them as being easy so 
Earlier this year AI FTP kept going up and up for me and got as high as 288 (if it only it were real!). I was skeptical of every increase, but I decided to stick with it. I ultimately had to manually drop my FTP down to 270. I think TR’s AI is biased towards being a little bit higher than your actual FTP with the goal of pulling you up to that value. At least that’s how it appears to me.
To recalibrate yourself, I would recommend looking at the Eichorn family of workouts. They’re all 2x20 sweet spot starting at 90% and going up to 94%. If you do Eichorn and you would rate it Hard maybe leaning towards Very Hard then I’d manually drop your FTP to 90% of what it currently is. If it’s not that hard, try Eichorn +1 or Eichorn +2, or manually up the % so the work intervals are at whatever level you want to shoot for.
Once you find the level where 2x20 is Hard/almost Very Hard and reset your FTP there, pick a day to do a workout called Gray, which is 2x20 at 100%. That will pull your Threshold PL up to about 5.5-6 and you’ll start getting more productive workouts than 3x8 at whatever your current over-estimated FTP is.
Thanks for this thoughtful post. I’d say I did pretty much only Z1/Z2 during the event, especially as the weeks progressed. And I do think there’s an element of “you get as fit as the intensity you train at”. But it’s been two months since I got back, I’m fully recovered and motivated to train, but everything still feels a bit meh.
Regarding your second point, the MV pol Plan only has threshold. I read in some thread that this is based on user feedback. I have been mixing it up a bit more but I find it hard to pick appropriate alternative workouts from the vast selection (also then suddenly something feels too easy) so often I just do what the computer tells me. Guess I shouldn’t overthink all of this. Consistency is key and a few watts +/- here or there won’t make a massive difference.
Volume and consistency are primary drivers of fitness IMHO. Absolutely agree with you on not overthinking things. If you don’t know what workouts seem to give you better results, then just go with the flow and adjust as necessary.
re: meh comment, FWIW I feel meh when:
I’ve got pretty darn good base of aerobic fitness, and my personal experience is that I benefit from doing more freestyle endurance efforts versus erg-like efforts at say 70% FTP.
FWIW, and again those are my personal experiences.
Being “i love threshold guy, give me more” type of guy I agree - too much steady threshold and I am in comfort zone - hard but not too hard, mind is calm and happy. That’s why I added sst with burts, tempo with burts and sometimes vo2 max outside the block. Especially the burts help with transitions and are quite specific for riding. I mix lenght and cadence - my new favourite are 1 min long spikes, usually they end up @ 5min power and done with fast cadence and slow - just to add another layer of variability.
Fully agree. The higher the volume the everything is better on the bike. But then the eating outside the bike - do not get me started on that…