I’ll ask again (since your answer did not address my point; maybe I wasn’t clear enough) @ZackeryWeimer : The thing with the struggle survey is that people often expect being dialed down thereafter but don’t know that it’s only if they choose intensity (and maybe training fatigue). And it’s not clear that all other responses keep rising the intensity and burn people out. The UI needs to make that more clear for each struggle option!
Maybe add sth like:
intensity / … : we will dial things down to bring you back on track
Sleep / nutrition / … : ok, we assume it was just a one off struggle and will progress you even further
Honestly I think even if sleep / nutrition etc. after a struggle you should dial down a bit until one can accomplish a workout without struggle / with confidence. Then ramp back up again.
I (personally) don’t assume that just doing sweet spot work will always increase threshold (or even just doing threshold) . No canned plan can know that. You might just be extending TTE rather than having your FTP go up. There are multiple threads on this forum that say “oh your threshold PL is above a 5.0 so your FTP is probably higher”. There is no way to know that. Ppl extend there FTP to beyond 60 minutes without it increasing.
I’ve done 75 minutes at 90% FTP without my FTP going up at the end of the block.
So scheduling a 105% 2x20 is extra fatigue inducing and not optimal in my opinion.
I have been working on extending TTE for a while. There is no way I could do 2x20 at 105% with an accurately set FTP. I would crash and burn.
are you sure? I’ve got the older 18 weeks of Sweet Spot plan, and there is exactly 1 threshold workout and its 2 x 15-min at 100% ftp, from an ftp established 11 weeks prior. The SS 3 plans favor “pulling up on ftp” by using criss-cross and way-over/SS-under workouts
Gravel Grinder - Hilly include 2x20min at 103% (the day after 4x5min @105%-125%)
Sweet Spot MTB Marathon has 2x20 @ 102% in week 4 and 3x15 @ 103% in week 5
Sweet Spot 4 does have 2x10min @ 100-120% to help plan pacing for a 20min test, but it seems to me like FasCat does make liberal use of suprathreshold intervals
The workouts in question are the same difficulty or slightly easier than a 2x20 @ FTP according to the workout level ratings. I find the workout levels to be pretty accurate.
Surely this is a race day effort - why would you do that in training on a Monday?
I too can do an hour at FTP, but I’d only do it in a 40km TT or if I was feeling crazy, an Olympic triathlon race.
I’m not saying don’t work on TTE at all.
Seems to me that one would only doing these high PL “threshold” as beneficial training if your FTP is too low and it’s actually a sub threshold workout.
Last year, after injury I did 2 months very low Z2 only (58-62%). Once started raising intensity, everything felt easy and I needed those very long intervals. Yes, it is possible AI FTP estimation was low but it has been always other around. Beside, by RPE + HR, it did felt correct
Also, I don’t race, completing 1h at FTP is goal on it’s own
Those suprathreshold workouts are part of the Half Distance Triathlon Specialty Phase you’re currently on. It looks like you’re on Week 3 right now, so you should have a recovery week next week, followed by the final 4 weeks leading into your race, which does actually move away from those suprathreshold workouts by default.
Threshold workouts above Level 6 are challenging, but athletes do get up there! Those workouts will pop up in different plans depending on athletes’ goals and their own personal Progression Levels. As @svens said, some of those workouts focus on improving TTE, while others mimic attacks via bursts of power mixed into long sustained efforts. We even have more that focus on progressing that suprathreshold power at just above 100% FTP.
@Rizzi and @PWeber good points on the post-workout surveys – I’ll relay that along to our development team. We’ve been discussing the post-workout surveys a bit internally, so this is useful feedback!
Timely thread. I was feeling a little sorry for myself seeing blackhawk +2 (5.8) on my calendar for thursday. 4x10@105%. But at least Blackhawk has 8 minute rest between intervals. Last week, I struggled on the last couple intervals with 6x8x102% with 4 minute rest (5.4), but was within a few watts of target and figured it was close enough to call it successful. I marked it as “very hard” rather than all out, kind of on the fence since I was technically short on the last couple intervals. I’ll give blackhawk a shot, but 105% for me feels pretty unsustainable. Perfect for manageable over/unders, but I think 10 minutes at a shot is going to feel like I’m digging a vo2max hole (which is should since it’s right at the edge).
I’ve noticed there is now an info popup next to the post-ride survey, presumably to explain the meaning behind the red ponses. However, at least on the iPad, there are no additional details.
@ZackeryWeimer Please push for this, it would be good to have some sort of advice next to the levels shown here, I don’t want hyperlinks but some basic stuff beneath in small print (e.g. 5- All Out “Back pedalled/ Extra rest taken” ) stuff we can relate too… I’m sure that’s easily done, seen many thread’s on this on how others judge them, but I’m sure not everybody has seen them or can remember on the spot.
Not going down that path on how I rate them other than I always mark on the side of caution, as I don’t want to end up in a hole!
I’ve also been struggling with suprathreshold workouts @105%. They are way harder than over-unders of the same level. But if I mark the former as too intense than the latter ones get decreased in intensity too which I don’t feel I need to do because they are manageable.
I doubt that Stevens +2 should be the same level as for example Tioga. Also within only suprathreshold workouts 102% is for example level 3.5 and 105% is only 4.3. That is way off for sure. If you get a 3% bump in FTP, AI will decrease your threshold PL by more than 0.8.
For now, we still advise everyone to answer post-workout surveys as naturally as you can without overthinking it too much.
Here are our “official” definitions from our Support Article on the subject:
How to Rate Your Effort
Easy
This ride felt easy and non-taxing, requiring little effort or focus. You could repeat the ride and pass it without issue.
Moderate
This ride was somewhat comfortable but required some focus to complete. You felt a little challenged but had confidence that you could finish. If the ride had an additional set of intervals, you could complete it.
Hard
This ride required effort and focus and was challenging to complete. This will feel tough and you’ll look forward to this ride ending. If there was an additional interval, you could have done it with some focus.
Very Hard
This ride was very difficult to complete. This ride tested you. If there would have been one more interval, you wouldn’t have been able to do it.
All Out
This ride was extremely difficult. It pushed me well beyond my abilities and took a massive amount of energy and focus to complete. You’ll feel like you barely made it to the end of this ride, and that you had to pull out every mental trick in the book to finish.
Keep in mind that backpedaling/extra rest/decreasing the workout %/drops in power/etc. would fall into what we’d call “All Out” (barely making it to the end of the ride/pulling mental tricks) – you don’t have to be lying on the ground puking!!
