I meant you specifically (from what I have learned about you from your posts on the forums) are experienced and smart enough to manage the fatigue yourself.
Anyone would benefit from a technique coach as technique for power lifting moves can be difficult to master.
when I hear “cycling specific” I do occasionally see people recommending lifting, etc. but I mostly I see BS like legs lifts or burpees. sry don’t mean to offend anyone into doing planks but to call it strength training is laughable. anything you can do for 2-10+ minutes is by definition not strength.
example of not strength:
example of strength:
imo, just from seeing how it benefited me, everyone would benefit for squat, bench, deadlift HARD regularly. These are the main Power Lifting moves and they are all about strength (not looks). Especially those >40yo will benefit by maintaining muscle mass.
Starting Strength is a great place to learn that. You’ll learn technique, how to progressive overload it, how to program…then just pair it down a little so it meshes in with your other stuff.
isn’t strength and VO2 the two greatest predictors of longevity? it’s really a great combo with cycling.
How many sets and reps should I do? By default I am doing 3 x 10.
– 3x10 is fine, especially as a beginner. As you progress you’ll probably be better suited to lower reps as the whole point of weight lifting is to push heavy weight. So periodizing it just like the bike is key. So I’d start at the 3x10 and when you start to get comfortable move to something like 3-4x6 and then 4x4 or something.
How long should the rest between sets be? 30 seconds? 1 minute?
– 60s is as low as I’d ever go. I usually take at least 2-3 minutes between sets. The heavier you go the more rest you’ll need. So in the beginning when you’re just getting comfortable and not actually pushing your strength limits, less rest is fine. But eventually you’ll be severely limiting yourself with rest that short. Think of it like doing anaerobic intervals on the bike with very little rest vs lots of rest.
How do pick a sequence of exercises? I typically try to focus on different muscle groups, e. g. a back exercise after a leg exercise.
– I usually try to do a full-ish body routine every day in the gym. Once you get up to 3+ days per week it starts to make more sense to split it up. So a workout would be something like Squat, RDL, Bench, Row, Core. then the next day something like Deadlift, Lunge, OHP, Pullup, Core
How many different types of exercises should I do per session?
– Probably like 4-6 is a good spot for a cyclist. Not too much volume but also hitting all the body parts.
My feeling is that most machines are not great as they only aim to work out a single muscle (group). They tend to load left and right side symmetrically. Should I focus on exercises that have me use several muscle groups at the same time?
– Yeah I think for cyclists free weights and compound lifts are better. You’re not looking to just smash one muscle group to oblivion. The total body coordination is good to train as well. But there’s not issue with throwing in machines or cables for some of the movements sometimes. Cable rows, lat pull downs, leg press, etc all have their place.
What do I do during rest weeks? This week (= rest week), I only did 2 sets instead of 3. Is that enough?
– Rest == Rest. So sorta like a rest week on the bike, I will cut my sets down and my weight comes down by like 40-50+%.
How do I make sure I put the right amount of load (fatigue) on my system? I overdid it a bit in the beginning of this year, and while I felt great in the gym, I always struggled with the first hard workout of the week.
– This is super hard to balance for sure. First is to decide what your priorities are. If it’s overall health/fitness then sacrificing a bike workout for lifting is fine. Starting out, I would probably start super slow in the gym and then slowly ramp up. But taking care to not let it affect your key bike workouts. For example, I typically lift decently heavy in the gym but during a recent VO2 block I did like 1-2 easy lifts over the course of 3 weeks.
– During my threshold block I did something like Hard bike, next day heavy lift, recovery, endurance, hard bike, hard lift. So I was fresh for the threshold intervals. Even though I was slightly fatigued for the gym, it’s not the main priority. The key was getting into the gym and lifting decently heavy. But not a big deal if I squatted 185 for 6 instead of 200.
As others have said, 1x per week can sound like a good idea on the surface but it can be really hard to actually see any adaptations and can sometimes make you more sore all the time cause you’re always a noob and you body isn’t actually getting used to it. I’d much prefer doing one moderate/hard lift and a second easy lift. The easy lift would be like one notch above a recovery week lift. Just to get the reps in, get the weight right to where it feels like you’re pushing but not straining. Like a 10-15min SS interval. Just enough to touch on it. That way when you come back around to your harder lift you’re still familiar enough with it and your body hasn’t completely reset back to zero.
While we’re on the topic, is anybody aware of an app that is sort of like the “TR for the gym”?
Ideally, I’d plug in a rough schedule, and it would spit out N workouts/week with exercises/sets/reps.
It’s easy enough to just repeat the big movements, but I’d like something to spit out variations of core/stability and secondary movements exercises as well.
Like Tuesday might be squat, barbell bench, lat pulls, [2-3 additional strength movements], [5-10 core/stability movements]. And then Thursday might be deadlift, dumbbell bench, pull-ups, [2-3 different movements], [5-10 different core/stability movements]
I suppose I could build something in Excel, but I’d happily spend a few $$$ on something already built. And trying to edit a spreadsheet on the phone while sweaty in the gym is a PITA. An app should be easier.
As my first foray into strength training, I seem to be getting on well with a beginner dumbell only workout schedule from ‘Muscle and Strength’. It is supposed to be 3 sessions per week, but as each session is full body, I just cycle through the three variants, and I’m typically done in about 45mins.
I’m pretty sure there are out there (I don’t know them off the top of my head) but most wouldn’t take into account any other intense training. So you have to be careful incorporating any strength training focused plans into an already intense bike training plan like TR.
I like to “hit the gym” twice a week. Once after my first hard interval ride of the week (usually same day) and the other after my second hard interval session of the week. The first gym session is easier, maybe 75-80%, for the legs and more core/upper body heavy. The second is a normal full body workout.
Workouts are a squat and deadlift (or leg press+leg curl+leg extension), a bench press, a back row, a shoulder row, planks/ab crunch, and maybe triceps extension and bicep curls.
I’be seen kettlebells mentioned, tried those, but could not get the hang of it. Any resources to learn the kettlebell swing?
Hmmm, I always thought it was considered as part of warm-up. Am I wrong? I feel that planks help, although I tend to do plenty of other core exercises as well. Or should I invest my limited gym time in different ways?
@mwglow15
Thanks a ton for the great advice. Hat tip!
There are many, all of the ones I have looked at have a $5-$10/month fee. Some are based on well regarded programs (). Some have plans built in/available if you don’t have a program already.
Apps:
StrongLifts
Daily Strength
Fitness & Bodybuilding
Hevy
KeyLifts
Gym Workouts
I think 531* is apple only
i dunno. I don’t get it with the planks sorry. maybe if you’re rehabbing an injury?
especially don’t get it with crunches. I mean you are doing like 1/5 of what the abs are designed to do. it would be like doing 1/5 a biceps curl.
deadlift 2-3x your body weight and you’ll have a strong core. squat 1.5-2x your body weight and you’ll have a strong core. bench your body weight and you’ll have a strong core.
I am sure I’m not gonna change your mind on that but maybe plant a seed for you or anyone else reading.
if you squat, bench, deadlift 2x/week you are gonna hit 80% of what you need.
if you want additional work, gear it to strength, not similar shit to what you get on the bike already.
i.e. for abs instead of an abbreviated movement, you could hang and lift your knees to your head. or use a cable machine to do a full crunch (like set it up with that tricep curl rope, face away on your knees, put a lot of weight on, and crunch your whole body down).
Love me some kettlebell work @Derailleur . Check out StrongFirst/Pavel Tsatsouline and Dan John. Both have good videos on YouTube as well as solid program stuff available on their website. You can search here for posts by @WindWarrior on his KB programming (albeit without any videos/instructions).
I think we got our wires crossed. I’m not claiming I know better, I want to learn. And y’all have taught me a lot so far in this thread and others.
Before I got into cycling “full time”, I’d go to the gym and there I had an elaborate stretching and warm-up routine that included planks. Not sure where I got it from. They relax and center me, almost like meditation. But if my time in the gym is spent more wisely doing other exercises instead, I’ll do that.
The main purpose of abs and back are to keep the spine from bending.
So exercises that target this are considered the better option than crunches etc. Deadlift, squat, one handed farmers carry, overhead press etc.
I don’t do planks either anymore, I find different pushups variations to be better, archer pushups, spider pushups, they train also your obliques and are more time effective. And because I don’t bench press I feel like it’s useless for cyclists.
so if you deadlift or squat, you are doing a plank of sorts under load
getting stronger requires load and progression.
I am not against planks…they have their place. great for injury or if you are completely detrained, etc…just people (especially highly trained cyclists - i.e. basically anyone on here training >5 hours a week) are fooling themselves / wasting time if they think they are getting stronger from a plank.
it’s just a weak isometric hold. you don’t get stronger (or build muscle) like that
just one more thing to add then I’ll quit posting in here - sorry I feel like I’m hogging the thread but I’m passionate about this.
not that cycling is bad for bone density, but it’s not really adding to it much - if at all. (maybe in the hip area?? not sure). meanwhile lifting heavy (as @Helvellyn pointed out heavy = heavy relative to yourself) is going to contribute not only to muscle mass but also bone density. another important factor as we increase our # of birthdays.
especially with squat and deadlift the load it puts on the bones of your spine can’t be matched with any body weight exercise.
plus all the other benefits you get from cycling that you all know about, increased blood flow, etc etc.
Do all the basic strength excercises but, if you want to be a better overall human in terms of functional strength versus just being better at bench pressing, grab a kettlebell and add some Turkish Get Ups, snatches and one arm swings to your routine. These (and other kettlebell exercises) work almost every muscle in your body from grip to core and they work coordination and mobility. Added bonus, you can do them at home with minimal equiptment cost.
I think planks are actually decent in a warm up. They can just ‘activate’ your core a bit. IDK I’ve liked them recently. But I wouldn’t do them expecting to get a massively strong core.
However, there are some planking like variations that I think can be good for general core strength if you like them and still want to keep them in. Ab wheel rollouts, lateral weight drags in a push up position, some variations of swiss ball roll outs, stir the pots, etc can be good plank variations that are much harder.
Another beginner question, from different angle: when thinking what kind of strength I need more frequently, I imagine activities like carrying 30kg (~40% of my body weight) boxes 50 times for 20m (a la helping relatives/friends to move) or partially supporting upper body with triceps for 12h+ ride, etc. Basically, little strength but extended periods.
Isn’t functional low weight high rep training (a la [weighed] pushups, pullups, renegade rows, etc) more specific for such situations?
EDIT: to be more precise, this has been my uneducated assumption and I have done it for a long time. Or am I wrong and high weight low reps training can be more effective for such situations?
You can do both - heavy and low reps and lighter and longer reps and both have their place. A good strength program will have you doing both over time.
While heavy weights are a more efficient way to get strong, you can do amazing things just doing body weight exercises if you spend enough time at it. Google “prison strength training” Someone earlier scoffed at burpees but it appears if you do them for hours every day you’ll get jacked.
Carries are a fundamental exercise that can be done both ways. Since most people can actually do a carry with a pretty heavy weight they are great for building strength and good for bone density too. But carrying a lighter weight like a kettlebell or dumbbell in one hand on a long walk can be a workout. Carry it long enough and even 25 lbs can make you suffer.
In real life, lifting/carrying things is what people do, whether its a baby, or a bag of groceries or the aforementioned moving boxes. Those movements almost always involves multiple planes of movement rather than a single plane like a bench press etc. This is why the core is so important as it plays a huge rule once you start moving around with weight rather than just lifting up and down.
You can do strength training on the bike and endurance in the gym. But it probably won’t be a good use of your time. Training can be complicated or simple. Simple doesn’t mean easy or ineffective.
When I want to get strong, I lift heavy. Squat, deadlift, latt pull down/pull up, overhead press. I would reserve corrective exercises for when/if you need them (i.e. I do for my hip). And functional strength is many things. Squat and deadlift are very functional
Someone earlier scoffed at burpees but it appears if you do them for hours every day you’ll get jacked.