I find this thread confusing to follow. To your question, maximum oxygen capacity (vo2max) starts with
Absolute VO2max
which is the volume of oxygen in liters per minute. It is measured by the person wearing a mask.
Then for comparison across a group or groups, it can be normalized by weight:
Relative VO2max
Rowers are pretty big. On Saturday I rode by the local college rowing center, and there was a college meet (crew of 8). Saw a bunch of women warming up on Concept rowers. Continuing further up the road along the river, we rode by the Kansas State women’s team running back to the aquatic center. Those girls looked more like weight lifters than cyclists. So although rowers may have higher absolute vo2max values, the extra weight will bring down the relative vo2max values vs elite cyclists.
So then we come around to vo2max training. The confusing part here is there are:
intervals to improve vo2max, these are classic vo2max intervals generally from 3 to 8 minutes long (mostly 3-5 minutes) and primarily focused on cardiovascular improvements although they can also improve metabolic (leg muscle) fitness
low-intensity consistent aerobic capacity work, the training rarely discussed, that when done consistently compound over time and improves vo2max “from below” and elicits improvements to both cardiovascular (stronger slow heartbeats / stroke volume) and metabolic (more mitochondria to consume oxygen and produce energy) fitness. This in fact is the cornerstone of elite training, and applies to average Joes too, and the average Joes, at least on the Internet, seem to get overly focused on high-intensity training.
protocols to bring about cardiac remodeling, which are all the references to “true vo2max work” and Kolie Moore / Empirical Cycling and involve highly intense efforts at high cadence in a concentrated block and should be done with careful consideration
No it doesn’t. Care to explain?
Cadence has almost nothing to do with it.
Rowers have a high VO2max, yes and alot of functional muscle. Cadence is in a very narrow range, 32 - 42 racing (not that big in training), Endurance typically 16 spm to 24 spm. Cadence a distraction in this conversation imo.
Coming from a English Championship Silver Medal rower.
Totally agree. I see it as a work-around to transfer workload from the legs to the heart and lungs. It is much easier to reach VO2max in sports that use a lot of muscle mass than in cycling were only the legs do the work.
Everyone wants to know the magical combination of intervals sessions that makes them faster whereas the truth is there is no magic interval session. Just ride easy most days, occasionally go really hard, occasionally ride your bike a long tima and occasionally take a day off, eat your protein, be in a state of caloric surplus, sleep and you will get faster over time.
I have the best result with the last workout yesterday, which builds on the previous workouts on the previous weeks.
Training is a system, not an individual Vo2 workout.
Each training session prepares the next one and is necessary for you to perform successfully day after day as you improve.
If you are here to learn, then read. I highly recommend the evoq bog.
It seems likely that venous return when rowing is less dependent on muscle contraction because the legs are basically horizontal. Certainly leg/body position in non-exercising subjects affects stroke volume and cardiac output.
I feel more beaten doing 30/15 or 40/20 and yet I get more >90% max HR time when doing 3x8. Probably once I go for 4x8 significantly more time (just started my Vo2 block so progressing it).
Which is so counterintuitive, because going by the breathing test, yea, I also feel I am breathing more heavily on the shorter ones, but HR data says the longer ones get me to that level for longer. 3x10x40/20 so 30 minutes interval time in total, was 19 minutes. Last 3x8 one so 24 minutes total interval time was 18 minutes. Almost the same time above 90% but only doing 80% of the interval time.
I did a lot 8x3 last year, this year I want to do the short ones and the long ones (6x5 and 4x8) mixed and ignore the middle ones. Let’s see what comes of it, I have two local climbs that are under 12 and under 6 respectively, if the different approach is fruitful, I could make them under 11 and under 5.
However, maybe this year already but definitely next, I want to add skate skiing to my summer routine. Because cycling just didn’t kick your butt as skiing up hills. Sure, I was bent over breathing like crazy trying not to fall off my bike after my last session, but that was over soon enough and then I did some recovery and cooldown. In skiing, your entire body is just exhausted. Using so many more muscles just taxes you that much more. So I want to see if that can actually have a positive impact.
I thought it was interesting that James Spragg and associates ended up with 5x8-min at 105-110% critical power (roughly FTP, or a little higher than FTP) as the fatiguing protocol for durability study:
Bloody hell that was hard! First interval was okay. Second was borderline. Third & fourth my power & cadence fell off a cliff. But I «did» get HR over 167 towards the end of each interval, when the highest I reached in a 6½-min all-out effort that I tapered for around Christmas was 176, if that counts for anything. Rest felt sufficient (set to 4, 4, 5), but HR was back to baseline at about 3 minutes so maybe I was ready to go then. TR wanted to give me credit for it so I said no way & cleared the PL box.
The quest continues to find the workout type that simultaneously inflicts the most stress on the O2 uptake system (central) & the least stress on the muscles (peripheral). Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
That’s where the hard start VO2s come in at HIGH cadence. So 20-30s hard start (around 2 min power is OK), then drop it to “max” but keep cadence at 110rpm+ (or as high as you can sustain). That’s what you’re looking for.
The workout I suggested will definitely train your ability to generate max aerobic power, and that feeling you got - that’s a lot like what proper hard VO2 work will feel like too, but your legs shouldn’t fully crap out. Power will drop some, that’s OK, but yeah. That’s what you’re looking for.
Your execution of that 4x5 actually looks pretty good, too. But to preserve the legs, shorten the hard start (go slightly harder for 20-30s) and raise that cadence way up. Aim for breathing like a fish out of water.
Shouldn’t the goal of VO2max work be to increase your power output at VO2max? If so, wouldn’t this necessarily mean you are putting stress on both your cardio system and muscles?
My go-to VO2max workout is similar to the one @kurt.braeckel recommends above - it has a hard start, then successive intervals have a slightly declining intensity to prevent the last 1-2 intervals from becoming too hard.
Thanks guys. Oh I was definitely feeling like a fish out of water. Gave me a bit of track hack for a couple of hours. A bit cooler this morning (13°C) than lately & I was fully mouth breathing until the last interval when I realised what I was doing & then tried to drag more air through the sinuses.
Glutes were on fire for the first interval then it seemed self-preservation kicked in. Think I need some cement so I can HTFU.
Roger that on higher RPM. My point of trying to stress the aerobic system & not so much the muscles was so that reaching & holding VO2 max is not kneecapped by fatigue. And also to reduce fatigue for following muscular endurance workouts such as threshold & sweetspot. If higher RPM in VO2 max-targeted sessions achieves that then I’m type-2 happy.
No, not necessarily. Small subtlety, but the goal of a VO2 Max Workout is to raise your VO2 Max.
Right now I just finished my dedicated VO2 block, I’m 5 months out from target races, which are going to have almost zero “VO2” efforts, so it’s about raising the roof and priming myself for more FTP gains through the rest of training. (Targeting Leadville Again)
But, let’s say you’re training for a discipline that requires a lot of on/off VO2 power, then you would be doing race specific prep for those power zones especially as you got closer to your event.
Edit: Tim Cusick WKO presentation here touches on it slide 28 onwards
Sort-of.
TR wanted to give me credit for it so I said no way & cleared the PL box.
Oh I was definitely feeling like a fish out of water. Gave me a bit of track hack for a couple of hours. A bit cooler this morning (13°C) than lately & I was fully mouth breathing until the last interval when I realised what I was doing & then tried to drag more air through the sinuses.