What would a custom VO2 max progression look like?

Training
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Regarding training for a race that is tempo with VO2 bursts:

In my running days we did a workout called “The Michigan.” (Think of the workout Adams but instead of recovery pace you are maintaining 80-85% FTP for 5-7 min. It hurt the first time (bad…especially the second hard rep) but eventually, after a few tries, it hurt less. This isn’t an “all out” VO2 effort but rather a sustained effort that trains you to “recover” at tempo. Really helped my 10 mile & 1/2 marathon races.

My running days are behind me (mostly) so I made a TR custom workout that simulates what we did on the track. It doesn’t convert over exactly (cycling and running are different obviously) but it has helped me in XCO races where you are essentially on the whole race).

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Nice! Sounds like a good plan!

Not sure if this has been talked about too much in this thread but the extra Z2 is key. Keeping your volume up through the block will bolster the gains. Just remember, and I had to keep reminding myself, that the riding time is more important than the watts. So don’t go out on Z2 rides looking to ride at a target. It’ll just leave you too tired for your next VO2. I think I was doing most of my Z2 around 60% FTP and that felt about right.

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Yea, that aligns pretty closely with me too. 60% is about the top end of ‘easy’ for me.

I’m planning on just doing my normal 55mile group rides saturday and sunday, and dropping myself about a mile after the start, showing up late to the coffee stop, slamming an espresso, then dropping myself a mile after on the way back lol

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So I’ve read the entire thread thrice now, and dug into some side resources. Have absorbed & accepted the info, and thus entirely re-jigged my VO2 strategy, and wanted to ask one specific Q:

I have an A Event Jun 9, and am hitting Rest Wk 1 of Sust. Pow Build next wk, then 2nd 3 wks of SPB, Rest Wk 2, then into 8 wk 40K TT that ends & tapers right into my A.

I’ve read here & else that VO2 is best done / fits well into Build phase. So was going to drop 2nd half of SPB and do a 3 wk VO2; fits perfectly! :slight_smile: And think will do me tons of good, LT.

As reco’d, going to run in std. mode, not erg, and go as hard all-out as I can sustain, for 3 mins, starting at 4 x 3s.

My Q is: I’ve heard [and experienced] it takes a while for the legs & heart to ‘spool up’. I was considering using Luftee, and using the 1st min as a ramp up, to full power for the 3 mins… so I get full 3 mins TiZ.

Or no, just use Spencer, 5 x 3m @ 120%, go full blast for the full 3 mins, no ramp up, and just let the leg & HR chips fall where they do ?

[I am not an idiot. I know damn well I will not hit 2 - 4 mins @ 120+ the first couple times, esp bc it’s my first time going no-erg & full gas. That is, I guess, the point of no-erg; I plan to just go full gas, whatever I can hold for 3-ish mins. I’m also going to absolutely maxxx each interval, and let the power fall naturally through the set, if it must. But try to hold the level, close as poss, through each interval. Although recently succeeded @ Emerald; 6 x 2min @ 120%.]

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I’ve come to the similar conclusion reading the entire thread as you have. I’ve never tried V02 without ERG and was concerned going in. Furthermore, I hadn’t done any intensity over SS since Nov 2023. So as an introduction into V02 starting my Base 3, I tried my first V02 in Resistance mode. I surprised myself not only during the interval, but I was actually pushing more watts in the last interval than the first. From my experience I just went off RPE focusing on breathing and leg speed. I fully expected the power to eventually drop, it just never did and was surprised I was able to hold on.

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See Hard start VO2 max intervals team workouts and corresponding topic Hard start VO2max intervals

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All I got to say is hoolyyyyyyy cow, and a massive thanks to those who contributed above. I feel like after a couple years of “doing VO2s”, I just did my first real VO2!!! :smiley: Super jacked about it!!!

As recommended by some above, tried 4 x 4s, all out on each interval, trying my best to hold it steady for the whole int, and going lower each int if / as I needed to.

So switched to Standard mode, killed ERG, and used Luftee, but only as a timer / WO structure guide. Power goals were all mine.

And holy cr@p, it was sooooo fricken’ FUN, felt amazing, and I got some fantastic results!

While my power holding was garb, that’s just bc my VO2 stamina is garb rn. But after my first slop-show interval, I got 3 near perfect ints w just over 3 mins TIZ each!!! [My abs. max bike HR is 160 - 168 ish.]

It was super fun, bc instead of just “holding on for dear life, to survive what the machine was doing to me”, I was doing the interval!! It felt fantastic. And bc I could let the power drop as I fatigued across the set, I was able to grab 3 x 3 mins TIZ, instead of just melt and crash. Or have 0, or only 1 - 2 mins TIZ in int 1.

[Bc I know my current stamina is garb, I used the first 60 s of each 4 min as a fast ramp up. That is what I can currently do. I plan to get rid of this as soon as I can.]

Super excited about this massive change in my training, and where this road may take me!! Again, deep and sincere thanks to all, esp a couple in particular that I won’t @, bc I don’t want you being hounded for more info! :laughing:

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EDIT: Ok, I’m absolutely in love w these WOs.

Two biggest reasons they are so great:

1: Bc you’re going all out, for what you can do that day, they’re perfectly tailored to you. This means you are never “too tired” to do a VO2, and I don’t have to be “scared” of them / intimidated anymore. In the past, I have skipped quite a few VO2s, due to sleep deprivation, general fatigue, energy spent on hiking, etc. I knew I couldn’t do what the system was going to force me to do, so I had to skip it. Now I never have to skip one!!! :slight_smile: <3

2: …and this is the best one… bc you’re doing the max you can do… if you blow up on an int… you can still finish the WO, and GET the rest of the TIZ from that WO!!! :smiley: You don’t have to stop, bc you can’t do anymore!!!

Just did my second; interesting comparison w first, just days ago. For this one I was pretty destroyed fatigued from sleep deprivation. But knew from previous to set a lower goal for the 1st int.

And I nailed the 1st int! Thrilled w it. However, too thrilled, and bit off way more than I could chew on 2; tried to do the same. Blew up. So I just dialed it back early, did the recovery, set a lower target for 3, and got around 2:30 TIZ!!! And on 4, I was able to squeeze out 2:50 TIZ!!!

This is… freaking fantastic news. SUCH a leap forward in the quality of my training… and the consistency: not having to skip. Tired? Yep, your W numbers will probably be $#ite, but you can do it, and you will get your system maxxxed out, for that TIZ.

I’m over the moon!!!

Obviously I’m super beginner, and the goal is to do a way better job of holding those power targets more consistent through the ints, but I strongly believe that will come, in time… and much faster, doing these properly now, than skipping, killing yourself too much and then being over-fatigued, etc.

2nd WO:

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268

don’t overanalyze, sometimes it doesn’t goes as planned. Here are my last 3-min jobbers

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Intervals 3 and 4 I mentally quit.

Interval #5 had 2 hard right turns at traffic lights.

Bonus interval #1 was a 1 mile stretch at average speed of 26mph so it turned out to be 0:02:10 instead of 0:03:00. So I tossed in another minute jobber after dealing with a couple intersections.

WKO awarded me 14 minutes above 90% relative vo2max. Ugly but I got my time in.

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@WindWarrior ya, huge “roger that”, and appreciate the reminder / heads up, and the pic. It helps.

Not gonna over analyze, or over plan: For now, 4 x 4 mins, hit each as hard as I can, trying to hold a target, for the full int, but let it fall if it has to. Get stronger, repeat! LOL

As some have mentioned above, if fatigue during a VO2 block starts mounting, will consider trying to 5 x 3 mins, etc, instead, see if that feels easier. But sorta think my bod prefers the longer holds vs fast up and down…

Super looking fwd to it!

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last 3 bonus intervals from above

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Bonus intervals… ‘take it where you can’ and ‘ya gotta roll with the punches’ all because of earlier mental brainfarts. Was simply trying to get some additional work done despite shortchanging the high aerobic demand part of doing 3-6 minute vo2 intervals. Ugly. Whatever. Next!

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Almost done my block. One more workout tonight (assuming I have time). for #9 in a 17 day span. Mostly copied @Rad-ler plan. Did one day with two workouts (well. 1.5 I guess since the first one I died in). And stupidly (stupid like a fox) decided to sign up for a gravel race right in the middle of the block! A hard and climby race too. I set 5-6 minute all time power PR’s during the race. Sign of the block working? General fitness increase? Who knows?!

All workouts except #2 were done indoors on a trainer. I feel like #2 (outdoor) was the best of the bunch. Different PMs but last time I compared my pedals to my trainer they were pretty close.

I generally tried for hard starts but it didn’t always work if I was fatigued or my head just wasn’t fully focused. Also tried for high cadence stuff (>105rpm) but I am just not very good at that. Need some practice. Seemed like I couldn’t keep high enough power at higher RPMs. Will check back in a few weeks to see if I have noticed any bumps. Kinda wish I had done some baseline tests beforehand but too late now.

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I’ve done a couple 5 x 4’ workouts now. It’s kind of surprising how not horrible I feel at the 3’ mark with HR pegged at 185 the whole time. Doing 3’ intervals to TR power felt nearly impossible.

Minute #4 still feels like near death every time, aside from the first interval anyway.

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I’ll bet it was that you were more used to the suffering than usual

Congratulations, btw. Great work and a hard block!

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Haha. Certainly possible it was the suffering. I really didn’t want to get dropped by my coworker up the first climb (again…) but him and one or two other guys went complete smash city.

Thanks for the kudos. Was a weirdly kinda fun block. Granted, 3-4 min intervals are kind of the WORST but they are short enough that you can tick off 30 seconds in your head without looking at the time and you’ll be almost done. And you can always hang on for 10 more seconds. 10 more seconds… So I never really had to get “in the zone” for a training session after a day of work and playing with the kid for an hour. Was just hop on the bike and do some quick smashing.

I kinda died in the last session, lol. I probably should not have done 3 days in a row on this final week after that race. But figured I would give it a shot. This last one was by far the heaviest legs I’ve had. Just could not spin fast/hard enough to really get the HR up enough and into that fish out of water breathing. So shut it down after a few intervals and just spun some z2.

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Have no races scheduled in April. So either gotta hold on to any gainz until things kick off in May or might have to manufacture some all out efforts in about 2 weeks to see where I stand.

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Hey, can anyone here comment on going too hard on an interval?

I’ve been doing 5 x 4’, and yesterday just decided to see what I could do for the first interval…out of the saddle putting in a hard effort for the first 30", then finished off the interval with everything I had. It seemed to really really impact the rest of the workout. Or at least the last 2 intervals where I struggled to spin fast enough to really get HR up.

I think i’ve heard both go all out on the first one then just focus on cadence later on, and also hit each interval at an intensity you can sustain till the rnd of the workout.

I might just be misremembering as well.

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It’s sort of a balance. You want some amount of repeatability in terms of what your target is…but if you’re going hard you’re gonna drop some. I think you can definitely go too hard on the first one and interrupt all the rest though.

From @kurt.braeckel earlier in the thread:
“For VO2max, I also disagree that fading power is a bad thing. They should be max “repeatable” efforts, and by their nature it’s pretty normal to see power fade some both during the interval and from 1 to 6 or whatever. Power is secondary for me when coaching and training VO2max proper.”

I had been pretty good at doing these in the 108-112% range and keeping consistency…but this day I went a little overboard on interval 1 and it wrecked the whole thing:

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My experience is that it’s fine if I only want to do one full interval.

:wink:

I have a terrible habit of slamming the first one and not getting a full workout done. Next block I’m going to set myself at least a rough power target to try to keep things sensible. Maybe just for the first interval or two.

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I can’t remember where, but I remember hearing someone say a good starting target is 5 min power, rather than 120%. Interestingly though, my 120% is almost identical to my 5 min power.

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A longer rest period can help. I’m going to be doing 4 x 4 today, but these will not be VO2 max in that I don’t have any restriction for cadence or staying seated, so these will be more about max power. I will definitely pace my first one close to my 5-minute max, then gauge the rest of the intervals. My rest period will vary from 4 minutes to 8 minutes.

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I feel seen having just done this myself earlier this week :laughing:

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