What would you do if you can't hold the power in the training sessions

He’s on the first week of SSB2 LV AFAIK.

Ramp test. Ebbetts. Kaweah :facepunch:.

This is a quote from his post, so maybe I am getting confused or possibly missing something.

“…My current plan: I picked a Gran Fondo discipline (not sure which one I should choose for FTP boosting, but I know my endurance is not great). Low intensity. Just done my first Base phase. Currently 3 sessions a week…”

I can see what you mean. I could just as easily be wrong.

I’m pretty sure he’s doing the Gran Fondo LV thingy with Plan Builder. It has him doing SSB1 & 2 LV before moving onto build.
Kaweah is the second workout after his second ramp test.

I see. I went into Plan Builder and it does have SSB1 and 2 for the Gran Fondo plan, but I did not see Kaweah in SSB training, but I guess it depends on the experience level you choose; I selected beginner cyclist and LV to see what plans developed and the training plan did not have Kaweah in SSB1, so maybe he chose a different experience level and the training plan includes Kaweah. If that’s the case, then maybe the OP should rethink things and choose “beginner” cyclist since this is the first ever structured training.

I remember Kaweah during my base training and was happy to be off the bike after that workout.

Update: I dug deeper and see Kaweah is on the SSB2 plan. OP maybe drop your FTP a little to see what power you are able to hold, maybe down to 150.

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My comments after Kaweah are alway NSFW. :shushing_face:
It’s not so much the power demands, as it’s the 10 minutes of unrelenting solid state at a new and uncomfortable intensity.
It sure does make the next sweet spot workout feel nice though.

The first week of SSB2 LV has Kaweah as the second workout after the ramp test when I tested it on Plan Builder just now.

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@Rosscopeco
Yep, I found it. I must’ve been updating my post while you were typing.

It is in SSB2. I don’t think it’s exp relevant, but I could be wrong.
And @Rosscopeco is correct, I was using plan builder and the first 2 base sessions are SSB1 and SSB2. For some reason the plan builder skipped the first week of SSB1 for me though, maybe because it sees I was ride with some TSS the week before I started TR? not sure.

Definitely need to find the right level to continue my training so I don’t kill my motivation and/or hurt myself. Yet I did use Sufferfest for 3 to 4 months before so I am not completely new to structured training. I did get injured after Sufferfest training, but it’s 2 weeks after the training finished (over the course, while feeling fatigue, it’s fine tbh), so can’t be 100% sure what contributed to my injury. My fitter still think it could be nerve related although he only exchange emails with me now as he moved to another city. My physio thinks the bike setup can change so got all mixed info.

Anyhow, thanks!

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this looks so encouraging if you put it that way ahahahah. Thanks a lot!
Will see how I respond to tomorrow’s training and go from there. Will probably drop 10% to start and see if i can boost it back up around 1/3 or 1/2.

It’s a fault with the Plan Builder that I’ve brought up with support. I’ve no doubt it’ll be resolved soon. TR is always moving forward in that regard.

Plan builder currently wants you to start training at the beginning of the week. If you start later on it skips the earlier workouts.
It would be better if it fluffed out the rest of the week with easy Z2 stuff and started Week 1 the following week. My 2c.

@leonchu886 I did find the workout and had updated my post…probably while you were typing.

I suggest a lower FTP to see what power you can hold; maybe 150, so not to demotivate your efforts. Whatever you do, don’t let the ego get in the way. I had been “just riding” for over 7 years and when I started TR, I just put it all in TR hands and let it strip me down and build me back up. I know I could (or would) be stronger, but I have a nerve issue in my left leg that affects my riding. I always thought it was a fit issue or the sciatic nerve until I had a nerve conductive test done and the issue was revealed. I deal with the pain and sometimes numbness, but it does affect my riding.

I also experience this. Not severe but it’s there. Mine wasn’t pain (exclude the first one), more like a pulling feeling. I can feel “something is not right” main at my inner quad location, closer to my right knee. Felt tight/tender, a bit of pain. I also exp numb toes after that. Also my feet sometimes feels more intrusive by my G8 insole. Sometimes very sensitive is all I can conclude. I’m hoping by getting stronger (everywhere), it will fix itself. Had some “spine-too-straight” “neck-too-straight” nerve issue in the past that cause lower back pain and hand issue. But it minimized after I did some stretch/exercise.

May I ask a bit more about your exp on pinpoint the issue? Not sure where you are based. In Australia, I have to go see GP first and it takes forever to do the “right” test. No worries if you prefer not sharing the details. Just want to learn some exp. Thanks!

Update: another possibility I hurt myself could be the stretch I added after my Sufferfest sessions. I added this move to try to improve my mobility/flexibility.

And I pushed through even it felt extremely tight. Although I “think” the 3+ months off the bike should have it heal so if I still feel anything it might not be that. But you never know, my achilles tendonitis took forever to feel normal. Darn I have a 60 years “young” body. So annoying.

His HR keeps rising rapidly towards max despite him doing sub-threshold power. That HR pattern would indicate supra-threshold power, I’d say.
So, you’re riding, thinking you should be able to hold and repeat this power forever, because the app says so, but you feel like you’re dying - the only thing going in your mind is “What’s wrong? Do I just suck at this?”.

Miserable.

@leonchu886 you are not the first to get wrecked by Kaweah a few days after a new ramp test! :smiley: Looks like you had a whopping big +10% FTP improvement. That’s awesome.

I’m going to suggest that the ramp test is most likely overestimating your FTP.

Just looking at the data from your last ramp test. If I were you I would set my FTP at 156W. Your best 1 minute power from that ramp test was 217W. 156W would be about 72% of that…or better yet experiment with an FTP set in the 150-155 range and see how it goes.

In the future, consider doing an all out (ish) 5 minute interval before you start your ramp test. That will give you a more accurate result from your ramp. I talked about this in this thread:

You can view an example of such a ramp test in the group ‘Hour of Power FTP Challenge’ workout repository. Look for HA Ramp Hybrid.

I don’t think there is a hope in heck you’re going to take any of my advice! :smiley: Regardless, you can rest secure in the knowledge that many TR users (myself included) have been exactly where you’re at now. Stick with it…you will find a way forward! Good luck.

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Ha ha ,looks a bit like one of my similar workouts.
I would do #2. Dont feel bad about adjusting the FTP that day, for that workout. But then, say when it comes to your sweetspot workout which you probably find easier, return to your original settings. Definitely not abandon workout ,or do easy one .That would be the case for when you are sick, Or just very unmotivated because of stress/tiredness. So #1 is not a good idea, because it doesnt solve anything, in fact it could condition you to feel you must always be fresh for your training. Racing, yes, training , you wont be fresh.
#3 No, for same reasons as #1 though at least you will have achieved something.

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BTW…I posted my rules for tough intervals.

"1.) Never end a workout during a recovery period. Always start the next interval. If you need to get off the bike and walk around a little bit, great, but always get back on and start the next interval.

2.) Never start an interval at less than 100% of workout intensity.

3.) Always try to make it half way through the interval at 100% intensity.

4.) Never reduce intensity by more than a few percent. Give it at least 30 seconds. A minute is better."

But, if you have to follow those rules for a workout like Kaweah your FTP is too high. Kaweah is 10 minute intervals at or a little less than FTP. If you can’t repeatably do 10 minute intervals at a given power, that power is not your FTP. This was my very first TR lesson. :smiley: Kaweah was the teacher!

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haha I will take the advice seriously! Thanks a lot. I do understand the ramp test can be less accurate given its simpler/shorter test method. I’ll give different settings a try and see how to maximize the training without overreaching.

I just don’t want to back off to get “easier” training. The goal is to get “proper” training load and hopefully I can hit the FTP goal I set one day.

Having said that, I might ask others’ opinion as well. What percentage of HR do you think it’s proper for Threshold/sweetspot/whatever zone training? I couldn’t really find a proper table online (too much information, not sure which one to use).

For example, an Ericsson in my SSB1 had my HR goest to 155 to 160 (86 to 88%, if my max HR is 180). Is this too high or normal? Ask another way, is this proper training or too hard/too easy training? My SSB1 FTP setting was 144.

thanks! any input would be appreciated.
I understand HR can be affected by a lot of other things, but I guess it’s also an indicator on how tough it is for me in that environment/day?

I can say what my HR looks like…and my max HR is maybe three BPM higher than yours. Several days ago during an hour long threshold interval my HR averaged 168 during the last 10 minutes. So 91% to 92%. My HR averaged 163 during the middle 10 minutes…or about 88%-89%.

Last time I did Tray Mountain (3x20 sweetspot) my avg HR during the last interval was 156.

Last time I did Allegheny (3hr 15min endurance) my avg HR was 142 during the last 15 minutes of the workout.

For me those numbers are typical. Are they typical in general? Don’t know…but hope this data helps you out!

thanks! very helpful.

Morning,
I am 52 and use to be a bit unfit until i started trainer road. Anyway what i have done in the past is to continue on the workout but drop my % value down 5% and then try that and try to bump it a little if i am feeling ok for the next set. It does become uncomfortable when your ftp increases but after a while it starts to come back.
Good luck.

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this seems very low to me. my cruising/resting HR when I did Kaweah was ~130.
but I guess all human are made different. :slight_smile:
Sufferfest’s 4DP (which is about an hour long with different loads) told me my LTHR is 158 at the time.

And thanks for the link, I was reading it and was wondering how it can be 100%+ HR, I guessed it’s LTHR but couldn’t find it for sure.