Will the need for a ramp test go away in the future

[brenth]

You still need a hard workout to get an accurate FTP

[brenth]

Only item to address though…is you really dont end up in the right zones if you never test. Need to use something to get there. Intervals.icu is decent. I wouldnt shy away from testing.

[vanbc]

Thank you to all those that replied to my question.

[CaptainThunderpants]

@brenth

I follow my data on intervals.icu. The estimated FTP is typically within a few watts of where I test via a ramp test. It is based on you doing harder efforts to determine where you should be in your FTP. I find it works well if I have been doing some harder all out efforts.

My eFTP is currently 18W higher than my latest ramp test. For me, it could be a couple reasons for this. One, I always put out way better numbers outside (I use power match with the same power meter), so all of my power PRs are from outside rides. Second, I didn’t feel great with my last ramp test, so it may have been a bad test. With that said, my workouts have been about the right RPE as previous workouts, so the ramp test FTP feels pretty good.

One thought I had with this. I know my numbers outside are way better, and have been tempted to use the eFTP with TR. Working out indoors has always been a lot tougher, though. So my thought is this. Since I know my indoor FTP is lower, I should just stick with that because the workouts I do are going to be harder.

I guess my point to all of this is to say I’m sticking with the ramp test. I don’t do max efforts on the trainer, and getting an eFTP from outdoor rides would probably make indoor TR workouts too hard to complete. And I think an eFTP based on indoor rides would be too low. And also I’m a masochist and sort of like destroying myself on a ramp test now and again.

[bbarrera]

@CaptainThunderpants

My eFTP is currently 18W higher than

FWIW my eFTP on intervals.icu is too high without making an adjustment to the default setting. As I understand it, I have decent short power and that skews the result.

[KelvinNewman]

With the intervals.icu eFTP does anyone know the duration of time they use for the calculation? I.e. how recent the all out efforts need to be?

[bbarrera]

check this thread:

Intervals.icu eFTP

Yes if your short duration power is very good Intervals.icu will overestimate your FTP. You can set the minimum duration that it will use in /settings. Maybe you should go with 7 or 8 minutes. How it works, short version: It is essentially a generalisation of the 95% of 20m power rule of thumb to any duration from 3 minutes to about 30 minutes. So you just have to do one max effort of any reasonable duration to get an eFTP number. Long version: Intervals.icu looks for points on your power dura…

sorry that is simply a random link into the thread.

[GeorgeAnderson]

I subscribe to Xert and their calculated TP and LTP from my ride data is spot on. Xert doesn’t need any ftp test data. People go try xert but dont bother learning the ins and outs of it so fail to understand it fully. Me, I love it.

[jarsson]

@GeorgeAnderson

I subscribe to Xert and their calculated ftp from my ride data is spot on.

But Xert calculates FTP from brakethrough efforts? Or I am missing something? And brakethrough efforts are basically maximal efforts. So xert does the same as WKO. eFTP from xert and intervals.icu was almost the same for me (xert being too high usually).

[AndyGajda]

As mentioned above, Xert estimates your threshold power and lower threshold power from the data you give it. And I agree, you need to take time to learn how to use it. The threshold power it gives you is not the traditionally understood FTP metric. But what it does estimate is absolutely spot on. It needs maximal efforts to work everything out, but once it does it’s a pretty powerful tool. I’ve not done a FTP test for a very long time now since I’ve been using Xert. I’ve learned a whole lot about my own capabilities and where my strengths and weaknesses lie through using Xert. It can sit alongside, or instead of other platforms. I love it!

[mikemcvea]

N=1 but I find that the ramp test consistently undershoots my FTP by about 10-15W. No matter how fit I am, I get to a point (usually at ~350W) where I physically cannot turn the pedals over to generate more power, but I’m also not done. I could continue to hold that power for another minute before complete failure, but I can’t bring up the required 15-20W step in the test.

I’m not really a fan of testing, so I typically, I adjust my FTP based on my body’s responses and data at various zone- meaning that when my HR starts to drop at SS or 3 mins at 120% doesn’t feel too bad, I add another 5 watts. In a normal year, I’ll use some benchmarks like a 20 or 40km TT outside to see where I am as the best test, then adjust that down about 5-10% to compensate for lower indoor power.

For context, I do all of my structured training in the TT position, and I am very much a deisel engine with a low top end.

[russell.r.sage]

The problem I have with this approach is the only effort that I do that really raises my eFTP is a ramp test. Following the plans won’t give you a valid eFTP. You have to put it in bigger efforts to raise it.

[GeorgeAnderson]

Xert calculates and shows you your power levels at all durations. You can see your 1 hour (ftp) power, 20min power, 10min power etc etc.

[jarsson]

Yes but to change your power curve, and FTP estimation, you need some maximum effort - no matter what if it is 1 min, 5 min or 20 min and then there is correlation to your training volume (but only when it comes to the ftp decay?).

Hence - you need maximal efforts to calculate your FTP. So it does everything what every other software and it uses old wko pdc modeling as far as I know.

[GeorgeAnderson]

Well of course you do. But this thread was created about the need or not to do a ramp (ftp) test

[CaptainThunderpants]

What adjustments did you make? Because that’s me. My short power is much better than longer efforts. I had to change some settings because my sprint efforts were being ignored as “power spikes” (they’re decent and apparently out of my ability range based on the rest of my power curve).

[jarsson]

Yes but then was discussion about testing and maximal efforts Yes- xert works way better than ramp test but (in my case) intervals.icu does exactly the same within 2-3 watts and it is free.

My 5 min power efforts overestimates my ftp in xert and WKO is absolute perfect with properly filled PDC as it ignores (to some degree) discrepancies in your PDC. And it costs less than xert as it is one time purchase. But this is only my opinion and experience so mileage can vary.

[brenth]

There is no magic to getting your FTP. If you dont ride hard you dont know your limit.

I tried Xert but was following a TR plan. I wanted to see the data and how it tracked. It was mostly sweet spot base. So what Xert saw was no effort above my FTP. It just kept tracking downwards based on what I was riding. Xert will work but it still needs you to do a hard ride.

[jarsson]

@Johnnyvee

some of us think other platforms somehow do it better with or without maximum efforts.

No platform estimates your FTP correctly without some sort of maximal effort Everything else is correct - some people use ramp test and their FTP is too high or too low but accidentally it works sometimes for some users

[JT_34]

Sounds like you should just do a 30 min trainer tt test and call that ftp like Friel says. That’s what I’ve done in previous years. Works for those without top end.