WKO models out outdoor rides with power? I don’t think so.
Yes, it does. Outdoor rides contribute to mftp, power curve etc. You get workout-specific metrics too.
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When he wrote “models out”, I thought he meant WKO removes it from the model. I do know WKO5 includes outdoor rides. I have a license, but I don’t use it much.
Back to Xert … the thing I like most about Xert is that it solves this problem:
Wanting an “ultra” HV plan option
The system will handle 12+ hour weeks and go all the way up to pro hours. It will also do this in a very flexible way that is helpful for those of us who aren’t actual pros and have other obligations. In my experience it actually makes it easier to increase the hours / load because when opportunities arise you can go for it and not worry about that 90 min workout that was in your schedule.
And yes it takes a while to get your head around it but if you are willing to invest a lot of time training I don’t get the problem with listening to a bunch of podcasts, that is the TR way after all. 
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I mentioned two things. First was simply asking the planner what it would recommend that day, I wanted to get an idea what Xert would recommend for the next couple of days. The little button “Automatically Create Recommended Workout” is presumably there for a reason. I noticed it was recommending Openers. In fact, just the other day it recommended Openers 4 days in a row. So…It’s either working properly, or it’s broken, or maybe someone will tell me it’s a “legacy” feature…just ignore it. I do understand nothing actually gets “selected” there. But the planner will show you your training load and hours for the upcoming week, or at least give you a good idea. About the lack of filtering in the workout list, yes, I understand that one can filter on the training page, the spot where it recommends 20 workouts. But…I’m also told that Xert is flexible, and I can go do ANY workout. So…maybe I want to do reverse periodization, with a bunch of VO2max or HIIT intervals. In that case, one can’t filter the way one would expect, as I outlined above. Is it a deal breaker? Certainly not, but it’s just another rough edge, one of many I notice when I use Xert. It’s loaded with them. The functionality is discovered like easter eggs. You have to click around and just see what happens. Literally. Truthfully, I don’t think I’ve seen anything like it in a commercial website. So you have all these rough edges. And then you have The Algorithm, the Golden Goose, the Sizzle, where the Rubber Meets the Road. . I actually read on some forum, where I forget, the Head Honcho states that he just kind of stumbled upon it, like in a dream or something. Bottom line…I just don’t have confidence in the product. I want to like it. Certain things i really like, but in totality, it just can’t jump that Canyon of Faith, at least for me. I’m out of metaphors…
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And a year later you will still be learning because there isn’t a simple and easy to understand user manual. You can see that in the posts in this thread.
But it’s not new. It’s been out for months and they still haven’t recorded one as far as I know.
Which comes back to my point that when you ask questions you get told to listen to 25 podcasts or hire a coach.
Let’s just agree to disagree. 
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I honestly never found Xert hard to understand. You punch in your progression rate, when your target date is, and follow the workouts. Is your needle pointing straight up? You’re on track. To the right? You’re ahead and can take some time off. To the left? You’re behind and should consider a longer/harder workout to make up the deficit. Throw in a hard effort to feed it breakthroughs every month or so and it’ll know how you’re progressing.
I found it all to be dead on in terms of my numbers and I felt incredible after only a few months of following it/mixing in my own outdoor work. I only cancelled as I had previously subbed to TR for a year and couldn’t justify paying for both, once my TR year is up I’ll go back to Xert full time. It’s so damn flexible, I don’t need to schedule a workout like TR does, I just jump on and it’ll tell me what I should be doing. They even have phone apps now so if you’re on the trainer it’s super easy to do a workout as it functions exactly like TR does with their phone app.
Could it be presented better? Of course. Their UI isn’t up to the level of TR, but that doesn’t seem to be their focus at all. It’s functional for what it does and their focus is on analysing the data as best they can for optimal results.
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“Xerters look at you…”
You have a name for the disciples? WKOers? Trainerroadies? Neither sound right. "Xerters? That does just sound “right.”
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I only use the HR stuff for giving my running a training score.
Interestingly, Xert’s MPA model was actually developed from work Armando did on a old heart rate based project: Xert and Bioshift – A History – Xert (baronbiosys.com)
I’ve been keeping an keen eye on how Adaptive Training is developing (just as someone who’s interested in these things). I hadn’t really thought about it too much but I was of the opinion that a bump up in one zone (to give it it’s correct name) would give a smaller bump to the adjacent zones as they are not physiologically separate. Perhaps that’s not what’s going on though as it does appear that in most cases the workout only affects the zone it is in.
Mike
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IMHO the big leap you give when you start using Xert is you go from something that you have little to none input (you know what you will be doing in 4 months time) to something that requires your input often. Coach Chad is you now.
In Xert there is a big scope for you to be always learning, because you are knowing yourself and at the same time providing feedback and adjusting Xert.
A very simple case is the improvement rate that you (individual) can sustain and the training load you can sustain (individual again). As you learn your reality so you will learn how to get what you need from Xert.
Yes, you need at the beginning to learn to get around and new concepts (example: if you come from TR it will be tempting to anchor yourself to the planner) which is a bad practice in Xert. There is new terminologies too.
I don’t see any difference between reading Xert support literature and reading threads like SS progression and change your TR plan to fit your needs.
When TR fully implements the new features I think most of the folks it will fall in 2 categories. The ones that just follow what is given to them without much thought (current situation) or the ones that question it and will try to play with things (what most folks do in Xert)
It’s either you follow or you manage. Neither approach is wrong, just make your mind on what you want.
With Xert I have fun, I do my training. It works for me.
I subscribe what @John_Hallas said on post #21. (Having probs linking it)
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I am an avid Colorado road rider and data junkie. In addition to running a training facility for NCAA and Professional athletes, I also run the lab in the facility with Wattbike/Core/Garmin/iOS tech in it in addition to my personal pain cave at home. I discovered Xert on Monday morning of this week. I examined Xert and quickly thought, this is my type of platform; Information and feature rich with a good AI program as well.
My initial excitement quickly wore off once I realized how clunky the setup is and how poorly the player screens work. The upload of past workouts from TP and TR was inaccurate, and even though all the forum posts said my FTP would change (drop) after upload, It should not have dropped by 40+ points. All of the recommended workouts after my initial one were permanently stuck in low volume recovery even after 3 days off the bike…and this is after I watched every video and set up my “signature” accordingly.
The biggest disappointment is in the education for newbies. I watched every video and in no place, did it discuss the sequencing for the setup of indoor riding for player views. The iOS app doesn’t even have a player view which is a huge swing and a miss for Xert.
I understand that this is a completely different platform than TR or TP, but the Xert team needs to dive deeper into their user interfaces. They are way more user friendly. I dont consider myself an idiot by any means and after watching your setup videos (which also is a time-sucking barrier to sales), I felt like I had a good handle on it. But it’s still not easy to set up or run programs on.
Xert is probably doing just fine financially I’m sure. But if Xert wants to sell more products, they need to steal a few pages from TR and TP. It takes too much time between setup-education stage to actual riding-stage, the equipment interface is way too clunky, and the video education only speaks to what the measurements are and mean, not enough time spent discussing setup.
I have officially canceled my 1-year premium subscription to Xert after 4 days of non-stop frustration and realized that the program is just too complicated for its own good.
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I don’t disagree with many of your criticisms. However, for me Xert has a good value proposition, for 10 bucks/month you get:
- Trainer control for workouts
- Workout library
- Analytics
Im using it now for offseason endurance. I like the control you have over the process while enforcing some structure.
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I tried Xert in 2017 and used it for a 2nd peak in November of that year. Just cherry picked some workouts. Dropped it after a year, and tried it again this year. From the past I knew that it relies on breakthrough efforts, and without enough of those (e.g. during base 1, 2, 3) you want to set signature stuff to no decay. Its a little confusing and I sent a support ticket providing expected FTP at key points in past season, based on field tests and WKO. My terminology may be wrong, so apologies, they promptly locked the signature to a workout in August and set to no decay. I have a coach and am just shadowing for analysis, like in 2017 the threshold and lower threshold and high intensity energy have been pretty accurate. But I still have no clue how to use it to program weekly and blocks of training.
This is how I’m using it. Not sure is the official or the right way.
- I have a target event, it sets up the periodization. Luckily the offseason coincides with my long winter indoor season.
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The offseason is also a setting for the improvement rate and I have set to NO decay, which means decay only happens as a function of training time.
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Pre-base and base have a focus duration of 3+ hour power, so that’s what Im focusing on. Not doing 3h workouts, but around 3-4hours a week of 1.5h workouts. Once I can ride outside I will ramp to 8-10h/week, and adjust the improvement settings accordingly.
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Right now Im doing LTI, LTP, FatMax, et al type of workouts, with some tempo sprinkled in. They have a good selection.
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In the outdoor season I will increase hours and pay attention to the focus duration indicated by Xert, according to my rider profile, which I have set up as GC.
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I won’t do any workouts outside. I will customize my training based on terrain, freshness and goals, with the guidelines of the focus duration of Xert. I might get some inspiration from their recommended workouts. Every now and then throw a hard effort to refresh the signature.
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Finally will try to keep the training pacer up, as I increase the hours, as an accountability nudge.
Will report if any value added to what I have normally done in previous years.
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I signed up for a free trial of Xert last year but although the numbers and graphs looked interesting (particularly the automatic FTP calculation) I didn’t see anything to pull me away from TR.
I was sold to Xert when I was doing a max effort and Xert predicted when I was about to fail (by a few seconds) - that’s MPA
This tells you how much is “under the hoods” and it’s a wee bit more complex than a SS progression. You need to put the effort to understand it.
Yes it have a few flaws, but you need to see past that, as with any other platform.
IMHO a month is probably not enough to trial it… 4 days is for sure not enough.
I could give a few more examples, but that’s beaten to exhaustion in other threads and on their own forum.
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Support went back a couple months, locked the signature on a previous workout, then set to no decay and had it recalculate from the locked workout. Believe that fixed things, I could be wrong.
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I feel like I have the perfect combination now - I use canned plans (TR and Fascat previously, now Tim Cusick’s) over the winter/spring when I like sticking to a schedule and then Xert over the summer when I want the extra flexibility it provides to do more group rides and events.
Interestingly (for me at least) the Xert phases have given me the biggest fitness gains.
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I take a wild assumption that you have done (significantly?) more volume during these xert phases?
I‘m genuinely curious as my main claim is, that after all „volume is king“. (And I’m on a lv plan 
)
I posted earlier in this thread (#21) about my use of Xert and how I had stopped using TR because of burnout.
I came back to TR when ATA was generally released and that has been really beneficial to me.
However I still use Xert for analytics regarding my performance and current FTP/TP estimate. Xert is uncannily accurate in estimating it and Xert works well with efforts outside TR workouts.
I have just reached my highest ftp ever at the age of 64 by using ATA but also by putting hard threshold efforts in occasionally. For example instead of a TR threshold workout I might have a hard effort at a Fulgaz or Zwift ride. That gives me the Xert breakthrough that
a) keeps me motivated and enthused
b) shows changes to my FTP/TP
I really like Xert but I am not blind to its deficiencies - learning curve and UI. However for the cost, the benefits I get out of it are high. I purchased WKO5 when it came out and use that all the time but I do feel that I get just as much out of Xert re my current fitness and performance levels.
I think all that I am saying is that Xert is one of many tools that can be of value. It is a really interesting tool with lots to learn and understand, which is an aspect that clearly doesn’t suit everyone, but to me it is worthwhile in trying to make that effort. I find it works well in conjunction with TR. You could manage with just one or the other but the combination works really well together. Just saying.
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