Yeah, that would be the better financial measurement, I think.
100%!!
This kind of tells the whole story right there.
The problem I see with hookless is that it requires a careful and conscientious consumer as well as one that reads multiple contradictory spec sheets and then makes a final best guess decision. (Even I have blown a tire off a hooked rim!)
Maybe some rim manufacturers offer a sheet with approved tires and pressures. That’s great but even tires can a variability in how they are made.
From a practical point of view, if the tire goes on a hookless rim easy and by hand then you probably know you have the wrong tire. Full stop.
I’d also not try to come up against limits. If Silca says 72psi is optimal, and Enve says 67psi for that rim, then don’t even use that rim unless you were planning to be under 60psi (even 50) in the first place. Leave yourself a good margin.
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I agree with the rest of what you‘ve said but not the quoted part. It’s more nuanced than how you wrote it. I never needed a tyre lever to mount tyres from Maxxis, Schwalbe, Conti, Vittoria, RH and never blew off a tyre. There certainly is a „went on too easy“. But I wouldn’t take the „by hand“ as the benchmark.
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Well for the sake of argument, I needed to order road wheels today… I bailed on the Enve 6.7’s and ordered Winspace D67.
It is crazy to say, but with my road bike having a limited actual measured width of 30-32mm tire, I felt most comfortable with the Winspace wheels and the value is just awesome. I just don’t want hookless road wheels at this junction of my life.
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Yea I agree. There are a lot of factors that influence how hard it is to get a tire on that does not have to do with tightness of the rim shelf. Shape and depth of the center channel, width of both the rim and tire, height of the sidewall of the rim…
Quick update;
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The G measurement on these rims is 5.5-5.7mm
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The RH Barlow pass was able to be taken on/off the rim by hand. Although flat they had a mild bead seat still with a tiny bit of pressure when it was broken.
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The Pirelli Cinurato require a tire lever to mount and went on with a floor pump.
I’m giving the RH tires back to my friend, not even messing with them.
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Wait…are you saying the bead broke on its OWN?
Wayyyy too loose if that’s the case. I have to use nearly all my strength to get the bead to break on my rims with 0psi in there…
More tim tape is the answer…
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I was able to unseat the bead with finger strength, I didn’t need to roll tie tire over and use palm strength.
Oh Ok I misunderstood…I thought it just unseated on it’s own.
When you unseated the bead did it still hold air?
Yes it had a puff of air that came out.
Mmm. Maybe I’m not describing this properly.
When I have my tires down around 10-20psi, I can push a section of bead completely into the center channel with my thumbs, off the bead shelf, without losing any air.
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The disclaimer is at the bottom of the page for their pressure calculator.
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This is not the case for these tires/rim combo, you push the bead at all and its coming unhooked.
I received an email back from nextie and they say the BSD for those rims is a measured 622 without tape.
It should definitely not be easy to unseat a thbeless tire with your hands. I mean you dont necessarily need to feel like you’re going to break a finger getting them off the shelf…but it should definitely take substantial force. You just need a couple layers of rim tape IMO. You’ll have the same issue with every other tire you mount if it is that easy to push off the shelf.
This is probably why you didnt hear a pop when installing them…they’re super loose…it didnt take any force at all to slide them up and over the ridge.
For what it’s worth…I had the exact same problem with hunt rims and donnely PDX tires. May have even blown them off the rim 4 years ago or so when I first got them. Anyway…added 2 layers of gorilla tape over the factory rim tape, and they’ve been flawless for 4 years.
Edit: I now remember - I DID blow them off the rims. I remember clearly now…was in the basement. My daughter was 4 at the time sleeping on the second floor…big explosion…daughter crying, wife super pissed 
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@Abe_Froman I think this is the debate that many other users brought up on this thread. The tire manufactures are just so different.
The Pirelli Tires that I have been using for (2) seasons which are 700 x 35 which are defined as by Pirelli as 35-622 are nearly impossible to get on with a single narrow schwalbe tire lever.
Its all in the tire manufacture at this point, I dont think tape would have helped the RH at that pressure and width rim… they were going to blow off and needed hooks.
Possibly. I’m personally of the opinion that both hooks and rim width are completely inconsequential here though…
If the bead of the tire can lift itself off the horizontal surface of the rim under any circumstances it’s not anywhere close to set up properly…
You’re right there is a lot of variation between different rims and tires though. Hence the need for differing amounts of rim tape. Every bike will be different…it’s like cutting a chain to match your frame and gearing.
Also…totally a wierd tangent…but I’ve got a 60 year old schwinn with steel rims and tires about 40mm. Hookless rims by the way, never blown off 
Was that your own measurement or the number nextie gave you?
RH writes in its blog:
G Height (sidewall height on the inside of the rim):
** Tubeless rims with hooks: 5.5 mm*
** Tubeless rims (hookless): 6.0 mm*
** Tolerance: ±0.5 mm*
So the tyre wasn‘t meant to work with your rim as you found out. The 622 bsd is the spec the rims are manufactured to. If it’s really 622 on the money or slightly less you‘d have to measure yourself.
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This is my measurement with vernier caliper. The measurement is only somewhat accurate as they are mechanical and not digital as my good set has a dead battery at the moment. I can 100% for certainty say the G measurement is not 6mm.
As we have all mentioned above, this is just mind boggling and even scary to think about. There are hundreds of thousands of people out there that are not quite as savvy as this discussion that “could” be in danger.
This re-enforces a good bike shop to lean on if you don’t keep up with the up and up and want the newest marketed things.
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Totally agree. I never even heard about g height or that it’s relevant for a tyre to stay on the wheel. I always just assumed I was good to go. Maybe this is on RH more than on rim manufacturers?
RH tyres are so soft and malleable that they should rather be a bit undersized than perfectly sized. Scary to think that a tyre just blows off a rim without intervention just sitting there. It’s not unheard of while riding but by just having 60psi of pressure is enough to lift the rim bead >5mm is in my opinion the fault of RH here.
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