always difficult to listen to while riding, the only time when I listen to podcasts. However, this was mainly about LT2/MLSS/FTP and so, correct? Not really about AeT/LT1.
I couldn’t care less about LT2/MLSS. I see no value in knowing this threshold. Quite contrary to AeT/LT1.
Completely agree. If Kolie thinks everyone is still using lactate to try to get at LT2/MLSS (besides Darth for fun), he’s out of touch (he’s not in general…but seems like it regarding why use lactate)
RPE, I guess. So why do I need a power meter then?
Seems reasonable. 
I’m also the only one on the planet (evidently) who doesn’t trust RPE and marvels at how “feel” has become SO scientific now. It isn’t “feel” anymore, it’s RPE. Because a different word makes it acceptable 
For well trained athletes LT1 is not slow
Sometimes.
Question: what if we had an indirect marker for when Type IIa fibers were starting to be recruited (in a non-trivial way)? Useful? Not useful? And how would you use that information, if you had it? And maybe you don’t have a marker for that. But…maybe you do.
I am not saying it is useless. I am saying it is a very unpractical, not so relevant tool. You need a lab and/or expensive equipment. You cannot use it outside. You need time to see the results.
Power meters on the other hand…
My ftp is 3.8 mmol. So? What am I supposed to do with it? Is there a realtime, non-invasive and practical meter out there? You know, like a power meter.
Yes, those are some of the limitations. They are real. We search for other ways.
You forgot one: the cost of the strips starts to add up like ink for a printer
He said at the start that the title was click-baity.
Reading, er listening, between the lines, it seems like Kolie has been playing with lactate. I’m not sure if that is a new thing for him but I’ve never heard him mention it before.
He didn’t say it was useless. He was kind of suggesting the longer stages similar to ISM’s protocol. He was also suggesting using the power duration curve as a jumping off point so you didn’t have to use so many strips.
I’m going to have to listen again but I don’t think I ever heard how a power meter makes lactate testing obsolete other than to test LT2/FTP.
Another WindWarrior voodoo post: for me its dropping cadence to 40-60rpm, with power at roughly 80% FTP. I don’t bother looking at torque on my head unit, but that’s an option. I do review per-ride torque histograms in WKO. Practically speaking that appears to result in an increase in muscular endurance and along with it long steady state performance (20+ minute time trials). My SPECULATION is that its related to making Type IIa fibers more aerobic, but it could be from increasing fatigue resistance of Type 1 fibers. Or both. Or neither. I spent a minute discussing with my coach, and since it was speculation we dropped the topic and moved on to a more productive conversation. In any case, I’m going to claim the evidence I have is that this type of effort is a training adaptation that works for me. I primarily use this during base, however I’ve also seen boosts in performance mid-season after doing long tempo climbs at low cadence (a natural consequence of being 3W/kg with road gearing).
Back on the latest Emprical podcast, the topic sounds similar to a FasCat blog post and podcast. Frank Overton used to do MLSS lactate testing, here is a 2017 article: Maximal Lactate Steady State Testing – FasCat Coaching describing the 10-min / 10W step protocol they used. And then at some point they dropped it and switched to do power based field test. For the lower aerobic threshold I’ve learned to push power and pay attention to subjective feelings - balancing slow increases in aerobic power against recovery and ability to complete hard workouts. Very happy with the results of using this power/subjective balancing act. It helps having some solid ‘all-day’ HR data.
Without having listened to Kolie’s podcast, I’m guessing its going to resonate with me because I’m not planning any lactate testing. This thread is about approximating LT1 without a test, because of the perception (ISM influenced) that focusing on LT1 will improve results from endurance training.
Definitely listen if/when you have time. That question from me you quoted was (admittedly) me baiting (in a non-confrontational way, of course) @redlude97. If you listen to around 36:25 into the podcast, KM doesn’t prescribe to “a particular model of fiber type”, which is exactly what my question/statement above is driving at. If you prescribe to that model (which would be common these days, it’s in every ex phyz presentation and is what we learned in school), it is very useful to know some “transition” from using predominantly Type I to a non-trivial recruitment of Type IIa. If you don’t prescribe to that model (whatever that means, we will have to “just chill, til the next episode” LOL), then that explains why you would simply ignore it.
There are enough fanboys that KM just saying it will make it truth, but that’s ok, I like that he challenges. Having said that, RPE still sucks.
And as you speculate, increased recruitment of Type IIa is (from what I understand) the common justification for low cadence work.
Without a physiology background, my keep it simple engineering sense of the size principle is that it might be possible to use power, torque/cadence, and HR as indirect markers. Which leads to triangulation and individuation challenges.
However I don’t think about it from a marker point-of-view, because I’m a simple minded engineer, and instead its about desired increases in muscular endurance in order to ‘enjoy’ 1-3 hour mountain climbs with my road gearing. And having done this over several seasons, I’ve noticed the other performance benefits.
And FWIW I’ve also noticed lower torque inside vs outside, for the same work, in particular when following TR SSB workout advice of ‘keep your cadence 85-95rpm’ while in erg mode. Even while using the big chainring on my Kickr. Which possibly explains why low momentum / high torque climbing feels to me like high cadence, high momentum (big chainring) / not quite as high torque interval training on my Kickr direct-drive. Because even with high momentum on the trainer, the torque is always lower and its not as hard as doing the work outside.
I’m with you. Totally.
Evidently you didn’t get the “group riding is evil” memo. Neither did I. Or maybe I did, but ignored it these last 2 years for reasons that we won’t discuss in this thread.
Sure why not. I’ve been DMing with some folks and why not just say hi here. I should probably try to read the whole thread at some point.
First, the real intended audience for the podcast was me, because I had the realization that was the premise of the episode and always thought it’d be fun to do. It was a blast. And yes I’ve been “playing with lactate” for years. But you’d probably be shocked with the number of people who ask me to interpret lactate test data, RER data, blood tests (don’t ask me I have no idea), or who are overtraining because of poor testing protocol and training targets. And as I work with more experienced people, the higher level coaches are all over the map with this stuff, so a secondary target would be them. Definitely not targeted at the average cyclist, but I’m not marketing minded in any way so if it connects with nobody, then oh well, lots of hours spent to satisfy myself on something esoteric. Pretty typical for me I’d say.
Second, the next episode is dealing with fiber type, since in that aside mid-episode I realized it’d be fun to look at fiber types in relation with metabolism and recruitment. So we’ll get into one or two papers I love and have always wanted to do on the podcast. It’s the topic of the next episode. Spoiler alert: it depends, and it’s also largely (but not totally) irrelevant. The same way I think lactate testing is nearly obsolete. There’s invariably one or two asterisks.
I’m flattered some people think I have fanboys, and while it’s nice to hear a “good job” now and then it will never quite penetrate the imposter syndrome and self doubt. On the bright side, I really pay attention to people who write me telling me about how I’m wrong, which happens fairly often. In all seriousness, that’s my favorite feedback. I should probably scroll all the way up, I bet I’ll learn a lot.
No you are not. As I said earlier I know what is easy (100W) and I know what is hard (200W), As to when it actually changes from easy to hard I really don’t have much idea. Perhaps I should just split the difference?
Yeah, his podcast requires a bit more focus than others. I can’t listen to it unless it’s an easy ride. Maybe tomorrow.
fyi w/rt muscle fibre recruitment
https://twitter.com/coggan_andrew/status/1501354917407174658
@sryke that’s why I said this
I have no clue what’s going on, just believe it (appears to help) increase performance. Or not. Who knows
only thing I really believe in is volume. Today was 2.5 hour endurance Tuesday 
Nice to see lots of people taking a shot at a Nobel Prize.
Before anyone asks. A lot of the questions answered(!) in sports physiology would justify a Nobel for actually answering them.
Most important part of the podcast FOR THIS THREAD:
1:33:10 into the episode. Is there a way to get that with power? (or does it even matter) That is primarily what this thread is about. Yes, you don’t have to seek out MLSS using lactate. We have FTP, CP, etc. Power FTW.
I want a target(s) for training that I spend most of my time in. I don’t spend most of my time at FTP, CP, or any other medium to high intensity level. Not because of some misguided notion of intensity distribution but because that’s just good endurance training. You have to. Fatigue, etc. I absolutely train (or have trained) in those other areas. We have some pretty well-defined ways of getting at those levels.
Ppl spend a lot of time talking about what we all do the least. We all do it. I want to understand better ways of doing what I—as an endurance athlete—do the MOST, the lower intensities. LT1? LT-blah. whatever. What’s going on there, if anything?
Andrew Coggan
@coggan_andrew
“There is no ‘LT1’, ‘LT2’, etc. - only a continuous but non-linear relationship between exercise intensity and muscular metabolic strain.”
https://twitter.com/coggan_andrew/status/1501551084141264905
There ya go guys. Santa Claus isn’t real. 