Can I do 4 quality sessions a week and benefit?

Hi, I am completely new to cycling but a quite good amateur runner (10k: 35.44, Marathon 2.48). Can I do 4 quality sessions per week on the bike (indoor only) and still benefit? I am asking since there are only 2 quality sessions in most training plans I have seen, but I figure that if I can do 4-5 quality sessions per week as a runner (2 days with double threshold and one day with a vo2max), then why not that or even more as a cyclist?

I did a ramp test (FTP 272, 3.4 w/kg) and a threshold session after that last saturday, then some threshold on sunday, two easy sessions on monday and was still able to do a tough vo2max session on tuesday, so my legs seem to be able to handle it so far. However a running coach that I had said to me that even if I can do all my workouts at the prescribed tempo, it is still unbeneficial to go into them to tired (i.e. running to fast on my easy days). Do the same apply here? Will I get more benefit from doing 1 threshold and 1 vo2max session per week than by doing 2 threhold and 2 vo2max per week even if I complete all workouts at the prescribed power and time?

First, welcome to the forum and that is a very impressive FTP for being brand new to cycling!

I think you’ll have a hard time finding anyone in the cycling world recommending 4 intense sessions per week. You could probably handle that in the short term due to your background, but you are essentially on the bullet train to burnout/overtraining. The common recommendation is 2-3, depending on how much additional volume you’re doing, and how well you recover from intesnity. The lower the volume, the more intensity you’ll want to do, with the caveat that you are properly recovering. Even still, I don’t know anyone who does 4 sessions per week. If you read up on what the pros are doing it is usually 2 intense sessions with a ton of z2 hours/volume on top.

You are likely to see pretty massive newbie gains on even 2 intense sessions per week.

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Emphasis added.

Just because you could do it for one week (or month, etc) doesn’t mean it is either sustainable or a good idea.

4 higher intensity sessions is a big workload…further, just because a Z2 ride may lack intensity, it doesn’t mean it was not a “quality” workout.

That said, some can handle more intensity than others. But you need to be aware of any warning signs as they arise.

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May be worth redefining what a quality workout is. It sounds to me like you’re wanting to do 4 intense workouts per week. 4 quality workouts per week is absolutely fine, as long as 1 or 2 of those are low intensity. A Z2 workout is still beneficial and is of good quality! As others said, 4 intense workouts per week is a good way to end up with fatigue and burnout.

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You can certainly do 4 quality sessions per week. More than that in fact.

I disagree with you that there are only 2 quality sessions in most training plans.

There might only be 2 higher intensity sessions, but that does not mean that the other sessions are not quality sessions.

I would say start with 2 higher intensity sessions per week and make sure they are really hard.

Add a third sometime later (months later) if you are still chomping at the bit for more high intensity workouts.

But don’t be shy about dropping the third one again if need be.

Depending on what you are training for, consider this question.

How is a lower intensity workout that lasts so long that it becomes hard, a lower quality workout than a short workout that is hard only because the intensity is higher?

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More is always more, but not always beneficial.

If you are doing a double threshold, as runners do it, which isn’t necessarily hard on the bike (i.e. 5 min reps at threshold in the morning and then 1 min reps at threshold later in the day), and counting that as two workouts, than yeah… it’s more realistic. Just make sure you recover from it before going into the next hard day.

Cycling is more like swimming in that it is no impact and you can do a lot more compared to running. But as many have mentioned the build up of fatigue eventually is going to get to the point where your performance suffers. You can train hard, but you’ll need to recover just as hard to get the benefit from it!

This is one point that I was thinking of reading his post. I’m not a runner but I have heard that it’s not uncommon to split up workouts like this into two-a-days because it can make it much easier to recover from the impact stress of running.

A typical cycling threshold workout for me would basically be equivalent in terms of total and interval time to a long marathon run workout (2 hours with 4x15 at threshold). That would be a MONSTER run workout but for cycling it’s fairly easy to do that twice a week, every week without any thought of injury risk or anything.

For OP, there are certain training principles that you can take from running but be careful taking the principles too specifically when it comes to cycling.

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I agree 100% with your coach. In simple terms when you go hard you stretch/ break muscles and they grow back when you rest. If you can manage more workouts but don’t rest enough, go into workout tired, you merely become tolerant of stress but the muscles don’t get any stronger. There’s always the danger it eventually becomes too much too and you can’t manage 4 hard sessions. However, if you’re fully restested the muscles build back stronger before your next workout and you improve.

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mwglow15: Ok so doing 4x15 minutes at threshold 2 times a week (or split it so that it is 2x15 minutes 4 times a week) would be ok? In the plans I have seen it is 4x10 minutes or 2x20 minutes so only 2/3rds of what you are suggesting.

By the way I do double threshold running sessions like this:
AM: 5x6 minutes with 1 minute rest
PM: 10x3 minutes with 1 minute rest
So its 60 minutes per double threshold day = 120 minutes at (somewhat sub) threshold pace per week, plus one shorter vo2max session with 6 x 3 minutes with 3 minutes rest.

It gives me huge gains, but also gets me injured, which is why I am considering switching to cycling where the injury risk is not nearly as bad. However it has to be pointed out that my injuries have only ever been to the skeleton (stress fracture) or to the tendons, I have never had any muscle problems.

I would like to mostly to time trials and possibly short races if I decide to give cycling a serious go.

If you’re injuring yourself with this approach to running, the answer should be pretty dang clear.

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To clarify: to a runner, a quality session is either at threshold (or just somwhat slower) or at vo2max. That is what I refer to.

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gally24:
“If you’re injuring yourself with this approach to running, the answer should be pretty dang clear.”

Running have much more impact on the body than cycling. I thought that was obvious :slight_smile:
Just becouse a certain load gets me injured when running does not mean that the same load will get me injured when cycling. If you want sources that cycling is more easy on the body than running I can give them to you so you can have a look for yourself.

HLaB: I fired my coach because I wasnt making gains under him using his soft approach. 3-months and no PR = fired.

You seem to have it figured out.

Good luck!

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Jeez…we are just trying to help you out with your question. That response seems unnecessary.

@gally24’s point is correct and aligns with the feedback you have received. Prior to you getting injured running, I am sure you had similar comments re: the workload as you made in your OP - “i can handle it so far”

You can handle any workload…until you can’t.

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TR has threshold as 95% - 105% of FTP

It is widely accepted in cycling training that a threshold session where the “on” interval is <10 minutes isn’t where it needs to be in terms of duration.

Knock out a 4x 10 minutes at 105% of FTP (try Black Hawk -4) and see how you feel after that compared to one of your running threshold sessions.

The 6x3 minute VO2max format translates across to cycling well. You could try Morgan -4.

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He’s implying that maybe it’s not running that’s injuring you but the way you’re running. You can overtrain or injure yourself on the bike too if you aren’t honest with yourself about the fatigue or training load that you’re carrying.

So if 4 intense session of running a week is causing you to injure yourself then maybe the question you should be asking isn’t “can I do 4 intense sessions a week on the bike” but rather “maybe 4 intense sessions a week is too much”.

If you don’t change your mindset then you’ll just be right back in this forum next year asking about why you are so fatigued and plateaued in your bike training.

That was just an example, not necessarily what you should do. The total interval time is based on your Time to Exhaustion (TTE) at Threshold (which generally ranges from 40-80 minutes between individuals or training status). So I might start an FTP block with a TTE of ~40 minutes so I’ll do 4x10. But as I go through a block I slowly step up that interval time as my fitness and ability to hold FTP increases.

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An oldie but goodie:

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Hey @Chris_the_viking,

As @gally24 said, welcome to the forum! :partying_face:

This is an interesting question, and it seems like the conversation so far has been mostly productive. :sweat_smile:

Cycling and running have a lot in common, but you’re right: cycling is much less hard on your body, which makes it a great cross-training option or a great alternative to running for those who desire lots of training time and are prone to running injuries. :skull_and_crossbones:

I’ve gone the other way than you, coming from a cycling background and picking up running over the past few years. It has changed how I think about things quite a bit, so it’s good that you’re coming into this sport with some different ideas. :light_bulb:

With running, the limiting factor is typically musculoskeletal injuries that start to pop up with excessive intensity in training. Cycling, on the other hand, is less injury-ridden (at least directly from training stimulus :x_ray:), but the more common training setback is from overtraining/underfueling.

The symptoms of overtraining aren’t immediately noticeable and typically compound over time and are only very obvious by the time you’ve already done some damage (not too dissimilar from a running injury in that way). While you may feel really good when jumping into training on the bike coming from a running background, it’s important to know that, like many on here have already said, more =/= better. There is a proper stimulus balance for each of us at any given moment. It’s always best to start small and incrementally work your way up in volume. :chart_increasing:

In terms of “quality” sessions, I’d argue that each session of the week is of quality and has a purpose. The key is to complete each workout with quality and consistency to get the most out of your training. This is what your coach was talking about when encouraging you to run easy on the easy days to get the adaptations specific to that type of training while also having the energy to knock your hard workout out with good quality the next day to get the most out of that session.

We typically recommend no more than 2-3 hard workouts a week for each athlete. One longer endurance ride (much like a long run) a week can be great if you can manage the stress long-term, and the rest of your week should be very easy riding. There’s no need to do “doubles” like you might when running, as there usually isn’t an issue getting enough training stress in from a single session on the bike.

It doesn’t take much to become saturated with high-intensity stress, and often, at a certain point, doing more easy riding is going to be more beneficial than doing more hard riding. Those double-threshold athletes are likely adaptation/recovery freaks and can handle a ton of high-intensity stress and recover/ adapt productively. :superhero:

Again, each day has a purpose, so it’s important to stick to the plan (including recovery weeks) if you want to see gains compound over time long term. I’d recommend using TR to get on a custom training plan and seeing how you do over time. You’re already off to a great start! :flexed_biceps:

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As usual, the answer is “it depends”. But doing more than 2-3 interval sessions per week is usually going to result in less quality for those sessions. 2 high quality interval sessions per week where you are continuing to progress is much better than 4 “pretty good” interval sessions per week. For me, I do 2 “untouchable” sessions per week on Tues/Thurs and I absolutely avoid anything else (fun group rides, etc.) that put the quality of those 2 days in jeopardy. I’ll do a long group ride on Saturday that always has a bunch of junk miles and some intensity, so I guess you could say I kind of do 3 hard days per week, but the Saturday is more about racking up TSS vs. quality intervals. And there is plenty of time to recover from Saturday before the Tuesday intervals. 4 structured interval sessions per week sounds like a path to mediocrity, I’d suggest starting with 2 and add a 3rd if you start to plateau with 2.

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