I thought it has to with the trigger for the gear shift. On current Shimano, the gear shift happens after the release of the lever where as everything I have used SiS wise before fully committed at the point of click. I had a big jump from DA 7400 to Ultegra 6800 and the “soft” feel always bothered me.
As for shifting speed on AXS for DI2, this is a thing. They are both plenty fast, but SRAM does have a slight hesitation after pressing the level. Part of this is that it has to wait to see if you are going to press the other lever (to indicate an fd shift), but there is a slight pause even after released. We’re talking about a split second, so it’s not a performance thing as much as just being different than shimano. That’s the hardest adjustment for me when switching between di2 and Axs bikes. Doesn’t matter if you are just cruising along, but can matter a bit when out of the saddle mashing. I time my shifts with my position in my pedal stroke (just habit after many years) to ensure the shift is happening when less torque is being applied. The timing between di2 and axs is slightly different and requires my brain to re-calibrate. From a performance standpoint there is no tangible difference here, but there is a difference.
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@Chawski @teddygram
I don’t know if you’ve had the opportunity to sample a front engine/rear drive where the shifter goes right into the transmission, not isolated on a bunch of soft bushings - basically a Camaro / Mustang and maybe some pickups ( s2000 might be like this). Direct mount with an aftermarket shifter (that’s not super short throw) these feel like well maintained bolt action rifles.
I had a really amazing shifter (direct, super rigid shift lever, friction-less, perfect spring loading) in my Mustang track car, which I REALLY missed when I tried to get the same feeling in my E90 BMW and VW GTI. I haven’t driven anyone else’s car that was as good either.
Most Short throw shifters universally suck IMO. A lot of indirect rwd (BMW, porsche, etc) and fwd shifters rely on this to feel sporty. FWD cars have cables and the transmissions are moving around a lot, so they just can’t pull of this bolt-action rifle feel.
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We have a new thread going here
Quick answer yes I know what you are talking about, my cobra and my current 'vette shifted much better than any of my shifter cable transmission vehicles.
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I am in Ottawa Canada. There are still a lot with mechanical but it would be something like 75-80%.
what’s the hub-bub about Campagnolo? what’s better about that than Dura-Ace? you have got me curious
ty everyone for the replies.
Not necessarily “better”, but a function of personal preferences, I’d guess…
For me, Campag has a more tactile feel than DA. Combined with the thumb shifters, it is a better overall experience for me.
I think you’ll have a hard time trying to say Campag is “better”, though…DA is pretty damn good / damn near perfect in terms of functionality.
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If you’re not aware, Campag has a thumb lever on the inside of the horn that is used to shift to a harder gear. It’s a totally different solution to shifting, so people who like that setup and feel have stayed loyal to it while Shimano, and later, SRAM went with using the levers for both up and downshifts.
Similar to people who prefer mechanical shifters, or rim breaks, or tubes, people who love Campy tend to LOVE Campy.
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My now-only road bike has Shimano Sora 3x8. Nice thumb shifters with solid clunks. I do prefer them over the STI system.
Edit: triples kinda stink tho… I’m trying to figure out why I can’t shift down to the middle ring. I have to shift all the way down to the small, then back up.
The Sora shifters are actually pretty different than Campag thumb shifters…for starters, you can’t access them from the drops (which is probably OK for most Sora riders since it is an introductory level road group).
I don’t think so. Yes, lever length does scale down the actuation force, but we are talking about the dead space until the ratchet mechanism is engaged.
The length of the lever is functionally identical to e. g. a SRAM double tap lever, and the double tap lever actuates almost immediately whereas the Shimano lever takes a noticeable rotation until it engages the mechanism. Yes, the actuation of the ratchet is also spread out over a larger distance, which makes it smoother/less crisp, but that is more a matter of preference.
I have DI2 in 7970 and GRX 8100, plus three other bikes with DA mechanical 9100. I’ve never felt that DI2 was better in any way than mechanical other than the front shifting. Frankly, even if you just do the minimum maintenance with a decent (read: above Acera) groupset, mechanical is perfectly fine.
I do like, with DI2, the satellite buttons. But as I don’t race anymore, these are pretty N/A. I’m also a bit peeved that electronic shifting (like disk braking) is basically being forced on us. I get it: market driven, blah blah blah. Still sucks.
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My take:
If you’re tt-ing, electronic is a meaningful advantage. You can shift from the base bars (where the brakes are) which is a huge asset on more technical courses, and it’s safer too.
For cx, anyone who’s done a full season in the uk knows that you’re basically re-cabling the bike 3 times a season; not having to do that is really nice.
Finally, if you have issues with your hands (e.g. weakness, some loss of function in one hand for some reason, etc) then electronic can be a game changer. My dad went to di2 last year because of arthritis in his left hand, and he only wishes he’d done it 5 years ago.
For everyone else, I’d say it’s potentially very nice to have (and maybe a very small advantage in higher level racing), but you don’t need it in any way. If anyone has watched the Mapdec YouTube channel, the guy on that is a very big advocate of ‘105 + expensive wheels’ for anyone on a middling budget, and I think there’s some logic to that.
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I’ve had tiagra, 105, rival 1x, deore 1x, and rival axs xplr 1x.
tiagra was good
105 5800 was super smooth and easy to maintain. external cable routing probably made it easier.
Rival 1x was okay but definitely required more frequent adjustments.
Deore 1x is on my mtb and also requires more frequent adjustments.
Rival axs xplr 1x is awesome. I guess I’m not one who misses the tactile feel of mechanical. I like the light touch to shift.
I’ll be perfectly happy to have electronic shifting on future bikes. But there definitely nothing wrong with mechanical.
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Ironically my TT bike (now sold) was the one bike where I preferred not just mechanical but friction shifting instead of index shifting! Compared to electronic you lose the ability to shift from the base bars. But shifting from the TT position was lovely as my fingers were right on the shifters already and I could execute perfect shifts every time, finetune the front derailleur to avoid any chain rub and never have to worry about indexing or cable stretch (as long as H and L limits were set correctly). Particularly useful as I swapped wheels on that bike quite a lot (training wheel, deep rim wheel, disc wheel) and would otherwise be tweaking the indexing a lot.
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I’ve always thought that those Sora shifters were a PR attempt by Shimano against their only road rival at the time Campy. Like ‘see thumb shifters are horrible’ by putting ones that don’t work in the drops on their lowest group.
No, they were quite clear and up front when they developed it that the target audience for that group rarely, if ever, was down in the drops and if they were, they likely were not shifting.
It is a pretty bad product strategy to purposely introduce an inferior, new product just to highlight how bad your competition is…especially when it isn’t the same target audience!
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That is PR.
It is a pretty bad product strategy to purposely introduce an inferior, new product just to highlight how bad your competition is…especially when it isn’t the same target audience!
So they introduced an inferior product just for fun? Doesn’t make sense.
It’s simple really, new cyclists got Sora and had a bad experience with the thumb shifters, and then whenever they researched campy for a future bike they think “oh man I don’t like thumb shifters” based on their Sora experience. I knew lots of people in collegiate racing back then on were on Sora. It was common.
Yeah, those buttons for the TT rig is good stuff, and great point about cables and bad weather riding, which I admittedly don’t do a lot of. But, just a few weeks ago I did a 70 mile gravel race and it pissed rain the entire time. My DI2 drivetrain skipped around like crazy, though I think that was because the chain lube was flushed away by the halfway point.
By the back half of the course, my hands were so cold I couldn’t feel much, and I actually would have preferred mechanical paddles for shifting versus trying to feel the smaller buttons through gloved and numbed hands.
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???
They introduced a product line that they felt matched the needs and riding styles of the target demographic.
As a guy who was actually spec’ing road bikes at the time, I can say with pretty high confidence that they did a good job, too.
Sora was never intended to be a racing group.
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