That is because you do one or maybe two quality sessions a week, instead of intense not so quality session five days a week. So it is not high intensity over the week.
Hunter +7 is kinda close to what I didā¦ but I went looking for it just now and couldnāt find it. So 
.
Yes, the library is a little mess currently, because hunter+7 is a threshold workout with burst (but technically it is SST with bursts) and when I filter workouts it does not display it. It shows under Threshold (without any other filter)
Nevertheless, now they even have something like 3x30 with hard starts, so they definitely upping their game in that department:
Iām intrigued to see what the adaptive training will prescribe for my Sunday ride.
3~4hrs steady or 2hrs sweet spot.
Spoiler alert - I know which one of those works for me.
I know there is a choice on the current plan - but whatās the AIās opinion
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It seems to me that the main concern that DJ and others are bringing up about TR is chronic overload vs acute overload. He mentions in the video having multiple people reach out to him about long term burnout on TR plans. I am 100% for the concept of using machine learning to tailor training to the individual, but if their models are only worried about adjusting intensity based on acute stress, the issue of long term burnout will not be solved.
I hope next week with TR addresses DJ video directly they honestly engage with this valid criticism of their program. If they have the data to show that their new program can prevent longterm burnout it would great from them to share this.
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Yeah, I will be interested as people start posting screen shots to see what the AI programs for Saturday and Sunday rides for people. I know that Iām going to respond better in the long term by doing a Zone 2 ride this time of year in the 2+ hour range and progressing. What the kicker will be is to see if the AI actually starts recommending these rides on the weekends vs drilling overunders or SST every Saturday and Sunday.
When I was doing a true POL plan with some other coaches here is what I noticed. When I did have intervals I was fresh enough to totally drill them and make improvements in my Anaerobic capacity and Vo2 max as well as repeatability. Then riding in Zone 2 the rest of the time trained my aerobic system to be able to recover from these efforts more quickly. On the TR plans I was tired all the time, neuromuscularly burned out, and efforts were of less quality because I was constantly tired.
The difference was though that on the POL plan most efforts were vo2 and above and all on/off style. When I got to mountain bike racing I would really start to feel it after about 5 minutes because I NEVER did any long efforts. I live in Colorado our MTB races usually start with a 10 minute climb at least at 9,000 feet. Then in the race you have climbs from 6-40 minutes. Never doing any longer efforts left me hurting but when I got to road racing and cyclocross I could drill it at higher powers, more often, and recover from the quicker by using a POL plan. Now Iām working on a POL style plan but when I do efforts they are longer Vo2 and more tempo which is what MTB is like around here, especially marathon racing.
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I think what TR is saying is that the burnout is not due to the fact you do three key workouts a week, itās due to the fact that people have different strengths and donāt fit into the bell curve that TR was using and therefore they werenāt doing 3 sweet spot workouts a week, they were doing 3 threshold or possibly even 3 vo2 max workouts per week. What we saw yesterday clearly showed the TR was addressing the one size fits all approach and also that they were providing suggestions for progressions that were clear options to a user who can choose whether to stretch themselves or ease off. Both of these things should provide relief to those claiming burnout.
The separate discussion is whether polarized is more effective than sweet spot. I donāt think that is as pertinent to the burnout discussion and they did address that somewhat by saying they will create polarized plans so that theory could be ātested.ā
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I think TR burn out is partially caused by intensity but also mostly because of fact that regardless of intensity TR has you doing intervals of some sort on every workout and most people do them in ERG mode. Reality is most people do with the TR plan are doing ERG mode for every workout, even if some of the workouts are in lower intensity.
Iām doing a non-TR sweet spot plan. The TSS itās very similar to the sweet spot mid volume TR plan. The plan does have a little bit less intensity though. But the biggest difference is that only two of the five weekly rides are done in ERG mode. Weekend rides are specifically supposed to be outdoor group rides. You are given loose targets as to how much time to spend in the specific zone and other general direction but how you get there is up to you. In the winter I do those workouts as free rides or group rides on Zwift
Either way you get the training in but the plan Iām doing now is much more refreshing and less mentally taxing. Feels like youāre actually riding your bike a lot of the time not training following an interval target or worse being forced to follow individual targets in ERG mode.
This is not a problem for everybody but for me it was a game changer to get out of 100% ERG targeted interval all the time mindset. Actually, I loved TR, until I got a smart trainer ā¦
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@Captain_Doughnutman, @jarsson I thought this was an issue as well until I simply tried Pioneer +2, Cumberland +2, Phoenix +2, Gibraltar +2, and Polar Bear +1. They were all very doable. Yet the longest interval I had done beforehand was 30 minutes (Wright Peak).
Guess the shorter intervals done repeatedly over months do also have quite an effect. 
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Thatās a big sticking pointā¦the TR plans progress far too slowly w/ far too much āintensityā. Most people would be very surprised at 1) just how little intensity they require to progress, esp. with those newb gains; and 2) just how much low intensity volume they can handle.
Of course the above is N/A to those only having 5hrs/wk to trainā¦so I guess TR fills that hole with 30+ short interval workouts (vs a 12 session long interval progression).
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I guess the intensity bit is very individual. I would say they are not too intense. I add running and additional bike time to all their plans and it never was much of an issue. Not even with a little baby in the household and a stressful job.
Here is what that week looked like I did Polar Bear +1. Couldnāt fit the VO2 max and active recovery session on the screenshot.
My point was more that those many short intervals will put you in a place that you can complete workouts like Polar Bear +1 without much trouble. Thatās at least what I did and ended up doing. Average Joe by all means.
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Here tooā¦but doing much fewer and much longer interval sessions.
On second thoughtā¦probably not average joeā¦Iām pretty far right on the TR bell curve.
Oh wellā¦maybe thatās my problem trying to relate to TR plans.
So it seems like different ways may lead to the same results after all. You do fewer but longer and I do more but shorter intervals.
I would say that with my 64kg (actually now less, hospital 
) and a decent FTP I am quite where one might wants to be on the bell curve.
So yeah, full circle: apparently many ways to go about it.
Perhaps. But we also have to consider the condition in which you arrive at the result.
Iāve done both TR HV plans and POL structured training, both resulting in ~300 FTP. I can tell you that with POL I was much stronger and much more fresh ā mentally and physically ā than when I did the HV plans (which basically cooked my heart). During my mega Z2 block over Xmas, I drove my āfatigueā [edit: let me finish this sentence!] to all-time highs, yet I didnāt feel fatigued at all, polar opposite (ha ha) of when I did HV plans.
I know many TR users will never get to experiment with HV POL training and I think thatās a real shame, if for no other reason than to give them (somewhat) empirical first-hand experience so they can make truly informed decisions about their own training.
That said, just as TR plans might have too much intensity for some, POL structure might have too much volume for others. Iāll be honest, I donāt always want to ride my bike for 4-5hrs, butā¦I know the results I get when I do ā very fast & fun 2hr rides ā so itās worth it.
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All very valid points. I guess we are just polar opposites.
I hate longer rides with a passion. They take too much time away from the family and job. So three-ish hours is the absolute maximum and two-ish hours rather the standard. Another point thatās making POL unappealing for me is the focus on VO2 max work. I hate that stuff as well. Once per week is more than plenty. Ideally not even that.
The TrainerRoad plans on the other hand are a perfect fit for me. VO2 and endurance time are limited. Though the latter I add where possible. Mostly as stress filler. With that out of the way itās sweetspot and threshold all the way. Both stuff I enjoy doing. Especially alternating sweetspot (Tallac) and threshold (over-under) workouts. Mentally itās a walk in the park. Physically not much different. Recovery is not an issue.
This makes me run Monday to Sunday a 1 / 1.5 / 1.5 / 1.5 / 1 / 2 / 2 hours workout series year round. The first session on Monday being an active recovery workout. The last two hour session on Sunday sometimes being an endurance session. The rest mostly as TR prescribes.
I seem to have success with it but that doesnāt mean that others canāt reach the same via a different route. Guess to each their own. 
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Physically I didnāt feel burnt out by SS - just a bit bored.
Re :POL Its quite nice to know youāve got an easy ride today and a good thrash to look forward to in a coupe of days.
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You mean that time when you did an 8 week SPBHV plan in 5 weeks?
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Yep. And the preceding SSHV I did prior to that.
Like I said, my POL numbers ā fatigue, form, etc. ā were much more severe than the HV plans and I had very little residual/chronic fatigue and/or ādamageā; in fact, it did wonders for my heart.
Guess thatās why all TSS isnāt created equally.
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Yet literally everybody on this forum warned you in advance for thisā¦
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Yup. And if I did the plans as planned it would have had mediocre results.
Iāve been experimenting for 3+ years now, for me personally, TR plans have too little volume, too much intensity, and are too prolonged. As well, many of the TR workouts have too short of intervals and too long of rest periods. Basically, not a high responder to TR.
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