I’ve gotten 3 FTP increases in the last 4 weeks, and the way AT has been adapting my progression levels, it’s going to keep happening (in theory).
A few weeks ago, I did a level 10.3 sweet spot workout a few days after a scheduled AI FTP detection. Based on my new progression level, I got a ~2% increase, but it only dropped my progression level to 9.6. Today I did an “achievable” level 9.3 SS workout and got another 2ish% increase, but my progression level only dropped to 9.2.
It seems like anything over level 9 triggers an unscheduled FTP increase, and I currently have a lot of those on my calendar, but this cycle can’t continue indefinitely. I assume I’ll eventually start failing threshold workouts that should be doable, and things will even out, or my threshold level will remain low with shorter intervals that are actually VO2 max. The latter doesn’t seem ideal
I’ve come up against this with V02 max in a specialty phase, but with only a few V02 max workout left in the plan I wasn’t too worried about it. Given that this is the beginning of base, and I have a lot of SS work ahead of me, I’m wondering what to expect.
Any SS workout over 8.5, if I remember correctly, automatically increases your FTP. This is NOT because your FTP has risen or generated by any AI calculation. Rather it’s so you don’t run out of SS workouts to progress. It’s more of a training limitation. Once your regular AIFTP is ready (every 28 days) this should recalculate and adjust down if needed.
If you are doing custom workouts then the progression levels are likely off and falsely too high, which is throwing everything off.
I don’t think that’s the case, I think it’s threshold workouts over a certian level drives your FTP up. I’ve done some 11s and 12s in SS and didn’t get a bump.
TR staff told me it was the case so unless something has changed from last year, this is how it behaves. I’m not sure if custom workouts are now ignored.
What phase are you in? TR will adjust your FTP +2% if you complete these 9.0+ workouts in the Specialty phase. Otherwise, it should prompt AI FTP detection which may or may not increase your FTP. I’ve done SS 9.0+ workouts without getting an FTP bump.
When you are in the Base or Build phase of your training plan, every 28 days, you will have the option of viewing an FTP Detection.
Additionally, completing a Level 9.0 workout or higher in the Base or Build phase may trigger an AI FTP Detection, even if it hasn’t been 28 days since your last detection. Similarly, this detection can occur even when you are not following a structured training plan.
FTP Adjustments come when you either:
Complete a level 9.0 or higher workout.
If you successfully complete a level 9.0 workout in the Sweet Spot, Threshold, VO2 Max, or Anaerobic Zones and you are in the Speciality phase, AI FTP Detection will suggest a 2% increase in your FTP. This small FTP change ensures that your Progression Levels stay adequately elevated so that Adaptive Training will continue to prescribe higher-level workouts with greater time in that zone. In doing so, this bump from our AI will allow you to continue to sharpen the energy systems that will be utilized specifically during your event.
Fail a level 2.0 or lower workout
If you fail a level 2.0 workout and your Post-Workout survey response for that session is marked as “too intense” or “training fatigue”, AI FTP Detection will suggest decreasing your FTP by 2%. This small change in FTP is meant to help get you back on track with your training and set you up for success in your future workouts. FTP decreases are unique in that they can also occur outside of the Specialty Phase, even if an athlete isn’t following a plan.
If you’re continually knocking out high-level (level 9 or above) Sweet Spot, Threshold, or VO2 Max workouts, it’s likely that your FTP is set too low. There are, of course, some athletes who like to continually do these sustained power Sweet Spot workouts, but it’s rare that someone is able to sustainably knock out really high-level SS, Threshold, and/or VO2 Max workouts with an accurate FTP.
Just to clarify, my confusion earlier, FTP detections due to passing high-level (9.0 or above) happen in the Base and Build phases, while FTP Adjustments happen when you pass high-level workouts in a Specialty phase. This is to keep the FTP change low (2%) to allow you to continue to knock out hard workouts in preparation for your event.
I’m in base, and it looks like you’re right. On my calendar, the recent increases were all listed as AI FTP Detection. In specialty, it says “FTP Adjustment.” Good to know it’s actually looking at everything and shouldn’t just keep raising FTP until my zones are off.
I do Level 10 Sweet Spot workouts most weeks currently
Outside Speciality I get an AI FTP detection triggered with generally a small ~1% FTP increase suggested, but most recently the workout I completed was inside Speciality and I received an immediate, default (2%?) increase - I didn’t get the normal ‘analysing workouts’ etc it just went straight to 316 > 322
Yeah, in Specialty phases, we give 2% bumps to try and keep the FTP increases just enough to give you some breathing room in the workout library. We want you to stay at a high level so that the workouts you’re prescribed are fitting for your fitness abilities and help to keep your as sharp as possible for your event.
If we allowed AI FTP Detection to run instead, you might get a bigger FTP increase which would drop your Progression Levels much more and you wouldn’t get those really specific, high-level workouts anymore.
Given that Specialty phases are typically somewhat short, we feel that the 2% increase is the best move to, again, just give you some wiggle room so that you aren’t running out of productive workouts without bringing you too far down.
In Base and Build phases, we’d rather let AI FTP Detection do it’s thing and give your a really accurate FTP and adjust your Progression Levels accordingly for long-term growth.
i have to say I really disagree with the whole approach of increasing ftp due to doing higher level sweet spot work. for me, I can do 2hrs of sweet spot stuff in a progression and not experience any real shifts in FTP. I’m coaching someone at the moment and I got them to doing 2x60 sweet spot and their ftp hasn’t increased (that wasn’t necessarily the goal, though, and we’re moving on to vo2 work). if you’re at 90-120mins of sweet spot, you probably need to move on to doing different work (like vo2 blocks) to increase ftp.
If an athlete wants to train with 120 minutes of sustained work at 90% of their FTP, by all means, coach them in that way, but this is what we believe in and what works for the majority of our athletes.
If you’ve found something that works better for you and your athletes, we’re happy to hear that! The goal is joy and progression, however you get there.
It seems insane to me to throw out a 2% increase just because you are running out of available sweet spot workouts. I am sure it works for some people but just because one can complete a large amount of time in zone at sweet spot does not mean that their ftp has gone up and just increasing their ftp could easily mean that what was sweet spot is now threshold.
I got my SS level up over 9 once. (Not recently) Then I got an FTP bump courtesy of AI detection. It led me to wonder for a time if I was training at tempo all along. Consider that the stimulus from Loma Alta with FTP set 15% too low, is similar to the stimulus from Holt Hill +1 with an accurate FTP. Maybe time that OP did an actual FTP test?
I think you are overthinking this. If you can do PL9+ sweet spot workouts easily, it is a strong indication that your FTP is too low and Adaptive Training notices that and ups the ante for you. It will stop once the FTP is within the right range. You should not be afraid of failing, that’s part of training, especially if you don’t know where your FTP is.
With experience, you can make honest and good estimates of your FTP, and you can adjust it manually (up or down!).
You are worrying about the wrong thing: yes, technically, VO2max starts at 105 % FTP (although you will reach VO2max at any power > FTP eventually), VO2max intervals are typically 115–125 % FTP (some longer ones can be at 110 % FTP, some shorter 30-30-type intervals could be higher). AI FTP would have to be off by a lot. Maybe that is possible if you are not experienced, but I would start with the assumption that this is not the case since it is very unlikely.
I can see how Level 10 SS workouts appeal to people. To be doing them frequently would make me think the training plan had a very specific aim, or was unintentionally unbalanced.
TR should relabel AIFTP to something else, because it doesn’t really have much to do with actual FTP. I understand the arbitrary jumps in FTP so that you can advance through workouts, but your actual FTP may or may not have increased. If they made it just “Training Score” or something I don’t think users would be so hung up on it.
In my case, sweetspot no matter how long doesn’t increase my FTP. It makes me really good at sweetspot. And doing 2 hours of it is super useful for the races I do.
I would argue that if you’re riding at 90-94% of your FTP for two hours at a time your FTP is higher than you think.
People like to push out sustained work as long as they can, but at a certain point as your time at sweet spot increases so does your time at FTP. If you’re able to sustain your power at FTP for over an hour, is it still your FTP?
I’m all for sustained work at TTE for those who value it, but when the focus is solely on long efforts below FTP, it can be tricky to make the determination of when your FTP has changed.
People like to push out sustained work as long as they can, but at a certain point as your time at sweet spot increases so does your time at FTP. If you’re able to sustain your power at FTP for over an hour, is it still your FTP?
I’d say yes, some people can hold their FTP up to 80 minutes if they’ve specifically trained for it. I know I trained up to 60min at FTP and it still definitely felt like FTP, the number itself hadn’t gone up at all despite my training from 35min to 60min. I know if I had done 5W or 10W more, I’d have blown up completely way earlier. FTP is just the point at which anything above it is quickly fatiguing and anything under it is relatively much easier.
