Obviously we all have higher genetic potential in our 20’s than we do in our 50’s, but that doesn’t mean a little racing/training in our 20’s should have made us stronger back then compared to years/decades of focused training/racing into our 40’s and 50’s.
Let’s say someone had the genetic potential to have a 400w FTP by the time they were 30 if they trained 15 hours per week through their 20’s, but they only got to 275 watts because they never trained seriously or consistently. Then that person turned 40 and trained consistently for 15 years and reached 325w FTP (even though their genetic potential at that point had dropped to 350w). Those are all arbitrary numbers, but trying to illustrate that just because someone is stronger in their 50’s doesn’t mean they never trained/raced in their 20’s, it just means they probably had other things going on in their lives and never got close to their potential when young.
Yes, you can be fast at your age, you can be very fast regardless of previous experience. But, that will come with some good saddle hours and years. I’d say an average of 500TSS/w all year round, to begin with.
Not at all…I am saying we have gained better insight into training, nutrition, etc since many of us were in our 20’s.
The claim was that if you are faster in your 50’s than in your 20’s then you didn’t race / train in your 20’s. I absolutely raced (decently but not earth-shattering) and trained in my 20’s. I am also absolutely faster in my 50’s than I was then. Some of it is better training, some of it is volume, some of it is experience.
I second this. 400-500TSS year round is both sustainable and necessary to meaningfully improve. Note that TSS is based on your ftp, so some BS ftp number (higher or lower) will have a large impact on TSS. I’d suggest actual testing with a 20-60min effort.
I also second my original suggestion of trying to actually finish the ride before you become a contributor. That is another way of saying learn to ride in the pack. On a proper “A” group ride (tempo, no attacks), I might have a NP in the upper 3s, like 3.8w/kg or something. I don’t see you hanging in there for anything more than an hour or two, especially if you’re going to put your nose out in the wind (you said your ftp is like 3w/kg, for reference)! Lol
If you complete the ride, then you just got a really solid workout. Much better than ‘fly and die’ 50% of the way through. Give that some serious thought. You’re not just gonna bang out a couple workouts and be way stronger. But you might be able to hang if you ride wheels and be smart in the pack
An easy 2 hr endurance ride on the Kickr at 140 watts will give me 75 tss. Four of these per week will be 300 tss, just below the 320 TS is doing. Merely looking at this it is not at all surprising that he’s OTB on fast group rides. Completely agree with comments that he needs to ramp the tss if he’s trying to hang with a strong group. 320 tss is decent if your goal is health and fitness (an excellent goal by the way), but competitive cycling is a whole different animal.
With FTP 206 if you have to push 264 on average it would mean almost 1.3x your FTP. So this would be very high on VO2Max or higher levels. How ofter and how long is turns?. Have you checked how many minutes you have been in that level of power before you get dropped and what is IF and duration of ride.
Maybe one tip, do not do your turn just before hill/ during hill. Usually dropping happens immediatly after the turn in case of speeds get up or some ascent still remains.
What was it Casey Stoner said, ambition outweighing talent. Don’t pull through too hard.
I did just that the other week, noticed my power was VO2, peeled off, struggled to get back on, went all cross eyed with my head down and veered into the edge … Nasty thump to the chest on a barrier and few stitches.
Won’t be doing that again.
Also try to get behind someone decent size. Didnt help I was behind a smaller rider and im 6 foot 2 so wasn’t getting much draft.
I wouldn’t say it is anything to do with being light rather than you just don’t have enough power - at 3.35wkg for a lighter rider I would expect you more in the 27kmh group rides.
If you want more power - hanging on for dear life for 1/3 of a group ride every week isn’t going to get you anywhere.
How about go on your own 3 to 4 hours long rides strictly at zone 2. then do TR or faster/shorter training rides on the weekday.
with 2xTR weekday rides + 1x4 hours z2 outdoor ride (6 hours per week) I’ve got to 300w @ 65kg. This was about 2 years of structured training and learning to be more consistent. and 4-5 years of just cycle as leisure.
Over time you will figure out what works for you in terms of training hours, scheduling training, learning to get more aero, improve kit, improve nutrition etc. this will all contribute to your performance.
Should have clarified, when I fall off the back I dont give up completely.
Ive spent 12 years riding solo so being alone if no issue for me. Once im off, its true that I no longer stick to the 265W required to be in the pack, or the ???W it would take to maintain 40kph, but I tend to drop to 205-210W and stick at that for the remainder of the ride.
We all meet up at the pub afterwards and have a few pints so there is a carrot for completion, even if alone.
I look forward to doing more TSS to be honest. For the last 6 months on TR ive been following the G/R light system which, even at 325 TSS has had me on yellow days more often than not each week.
Ive kept adaptive on after the changes from this thread, but set it to a more aggressive setting.
I commute to work and back 10 times a week (12 TSS avg each way / 15min so around 120TSS a week or 2.5hrs but that is factored onto my TR calendar, I dont leave it off)
The overall ride was 1hr 14, NP 214W, IF 1.03
Its based on 3 laps of a loop plus a warm up & cool down with the intention of the first two laps being ride as a group, and the third final lap to be an all out effort to blow the group apart, or see who you can hang onto. Its not designed or intended to be a group ride where everyone finishes together.
Given I soloed laps two and three, IF 1.01 & 0.97 respectively, it leaves me with the first lap where I was taking turns, at IF 1.19, 247W NP
Time between turns at 1min 16, NP 281W avg or IF1.35
I agree with all the advice there, but would just say that the ride doesnt run as a 1/3 hard effort & drop into a Z1/Z2 steady after I’m dropped. I do try to maintain a decent workout from it.
I drop the power to a manageable level & crack on, so in this case after being dropped, the remaining solo ride was 206W NP IF 0.99 for 40 min
I suspect your FTP is higher than 206 or 219 as IA suggested. 0.99IF for 40min is very, very hard. Particularly after getting dropped.
If I were you I’d do a proper test. Get the 20-minute standard one. I don’t like Ramp or AI to be honest. Also, if you intend to keep riding and doing workouts outside, try and do it outside.
So you ride whole lap in high Vo2MAx and cooked. I can not really think any other outcome than being dropped.
Following is taken from training peaks:
"1.05-1.15 shorter (e.g., 15 km) TTs, track points race Greater than 1.15 prologue TT, track pursuit, track miss-and-out
Note that one particularly useful application of IF is to check for changes in threshold power – specifically, an IF of more than 1.05 for a race that is approximately 1 hour in duration is often a sign that the rider’s threshold power is actually greater than that presently entered into the program. Thus, by simply examining a rider’s IF for various events during the course of a season, increases or decreases in threshold power can often be revealed without the need for frequent formal testing."
So i think you have already done marvelous work to hand that long. Also your FTP is a bit higher than you think.
Yes, not to poke fun, but I lol’d at the thought of you being dropped then immediately riding at basically 100% ftp for 40mins straight for the rest of the ride. There is just no possible way that is accurate. Do a 10min, 20min or 30min effort to get a benchmark of your sustained power. The TSS is a function of ftp, as is IF, so as long as your ftp number is poorly measured, these other metrics are of no use to you
You’re saying that’s factored into your 320TSS training week, so you’re only really training 200TSS? I’d be surprised to see you get much training benefit from a 15m ride twice per day, it just isn’t long enough to elicit much.
If you subtract your group ride, which we’ll estimate at 100TSS based on the numbers you provided, then you only really have 100TSS of actual training. >3wkg at 200TSS isn’t too bad though, I’d guess you can progress significantly by doubling that.
Is the ride 1:14 including warm-up/cool-down, and if so, how long are the warm-up/cool-downs. If they are included in the 1:14, and you exclude them, that would put your IF through the roof for an hour … on the other hand, if you really can hold IFs of 1.35, 1.01 and .97 for 20-25m laps (i.e. your FTP is correct), then you’ve reached a level many of us can only dream of. A 3x20 @ FTP workout is a gold standard and a tough ride, doing it with no breaks and adding a few percent would be mad.
That’s harsh, 200W@62kg is plenty to hang on with a group faster than 27kmh, just not one that’s looking to average 37-40kmh.
My pulls were 1.5-2m long and I was able to get 2-3m rest, group composition and my personal ride goal meant longer pulls and shorter rest. No issues resting at ~200avg (3.2wkg) while moving at 43kmh. On the flats, 200W is a lot on the back of a group, as long as you aren’t forced to surge often or pull.
On the way back we kept it easy and smooth, which is reflected in my power (117W avg at 35kmh, including a couple easy pulls), ignore the stop, someone flatted.
The plan I was on was Mid volume. Since starting to ride to work and back, TR’s adaptive learning has been blasting me with warning days even at weekly TSS around 340-370. Note that some of the TSS in there has been the commutes I cant avoid, and are on red days.
Whether my FTP is right is an interesting one.
Im set at 208 at the moment, but was 218 recently on TR. I found that Threshold and SST workouts were incredibly tough at 218., even when only productive.
That said, I do feel as though I can produce more power outside (Garmin Rally PM) compared to indoor (Tacx NeoBike Plus). E.g. 208W for an hour indoor would be an absolute horror show. Not to bad as an avg outside.
Similarly, I have no evidence to suggest it, but Im sure that producing that power on the Tacx at home was easier when it was plugged in. Since Garmin announced the new update and a mandate that folk can no longer use them plugged in, its felt “different”.
I should probably start doing more FTP tests which arnt either Ramp or AI.
I only see 2 weeks, but excluding commutes which are too short to be beneficial:
Week 1: 3:30hrs of riding
Week 2: 2:45hrs of riding
I’m not sure how rest of your schedule is, but looks like you do 1-2 rides + group ride, I’d be very happy with the FTP you have given the amount of work put in.
You need to have an indoor and outdoor FTP, or match the two devices in another way. My single sided 4iii reads ~10% higher (drivetrain losses, leg imbalance), while my Assioma and Quark read ~5% higher vs. my trainer. Indoor vs. outdoor FTP isn’t of much importance to me now, since I ride outdoors exclusively, but I’ll adjust down once I go back indoors.
I don’t know about indoor, but your outdoor FTP is definitely too low. You’re unlikely to be riding 1:26 @ 0.94 with 2-3hrs of training. If you want those numbers to have any meaning, you’ll calibrate your outside power.
Seems like something is wrong with the IF calculation for your commutes. You get a TSS, but IF is 0.0. That couldn’t be, since both require power to calculate and IF is NP/FTP
