Images show the business portion of two Dorr +5 rides completed by two different riders. “Dorr +5 is 4x30-second hard starts way up at 200% FTP followed by 3 minutes of suprathreshold work at 110% FTP.”
The HR responses (red line on the charts) to the intervals are totally different between the two riders.
Would someone please explain why
And, based on that, what training each rider might consider working on from here.
I disagree that the heart rate lines are totally different. Rather, they are slightly different but I can’t determine any meaningful training recommendations from it. The biggest difference I noticed is the rider on top appears to be in ERG mode while the rider below is in resistance, this is based on their cadence graph.
Differences in Anaerobic capacity, one of the riders is recovering after the hard start the other doesn’t.
The top graph shows the rider finished the supra threshold segments with a lower HR than the peak reached in the combined interval and with HR trending down
The lower graph shows the rider finished the supra threshold segments with the highest HR of the combined interval and with HR trending up
Is that not significant?
I suppose. The rider on top likely has more high intensity capability due to their training than the person on the bottom. It also could be that the person on the bottoms VO2 max is relatively low relative to their FTP as in, the above rider could probably do his VO2 intervals at 120%, where the rider on the bottom might be closer to 110% of FTP.
That being said, it’s hard to just go off heart rate and not see what else is in play. The rider on the bottom could have so many things affecting his heart rate. I’ve never seen someone compare a workout based on heart rate response between two separate riders. Generally heart rate response is only relative to the individual, and not compared to others.
At a guess looking at the power lines the first rider is managing it easier and starting to recover when the 200% interval steps down to 110%, whereas the second rider is struggling more so their HR continues to drift up.
As mentioned the second rider is not recovering. This is less about anaerobic work and more about aerobic endurance.
What would I do if I was rider 2? Ride more. A lot more.
On the flip side, if I was rider 1 I’d not be wasting time doing 110% of FTP for my VO2 Max intervals.
Yeah, not much context here but depends on where you are in the season, training week, etc. You don’t need to slam every workout, especially early season.
Now if you are in the thick of training headed toward your goal event, definitely.
Are you sure that rider 1 was doing the rest of the three minutes interval over threshold? Since they are recovering, I’d think that they were under threshold.
Or maybe you have Pogacar’s file there. 
The first thing I noticed in the second image was the abrupt halt to rising HR at the end of the 200% intervals. Quite a sharp edge in its profile. Looks unusual to me. The athlete also appears to be dropping off the 200% intervals early then undershooting the 110% target by quite a bit for a few seconds.
I mean it depends on where your ftp is in relation to your ftp … with a high fractional utilization that graph doesn’t look that bad would expect the HR to rise farther into the effort as he can’t recover at 110% of ftp ( or FTP is just set to high)
For the first rider it’s the exact opposite imo.
It’s also a bit hard to gauge because we have no idea how high the HR in relation to their max and how their power curves look like…
I’d say for the second rider that looks like a good VO2 workout. The first rider either needs a harder start (longer or harder) or probably better a harder supra TH effort after.
But again we have not enough info to make final conclusions.
These intervals have been done with ERG mode on, which means it is unlikely they are in any way equivalent efforts unless the prescribed FTP is identically accurate for both riders and any conclusion that is drawn is so far into the bucket of ‘bad science’ that it should be flat ignored.
The explanation is poor coaching.
The second graph does not make sense to me. In my understanding, there should be no “hard break” in the heart rate, the variation should be continuous. Are you sure the second user is not pausing the workout for a few seconds when it gets too hard? I’m not sure how a pause appears on TR graphs if you pause the workout before stopping pedaling. And the power also shows that something not normal is happening. I don’t know how you could get these big drops in power in erg mode without pausing the workout
To me seems like the second athlete is taking on a harder workout than he/she is equipped to handle. The power and cadence falls substantially after the initial segment trying to recover somewhat and in the second part the heart rate keeps increasing until the recovery phase.
Imo the initial hard start should take you to your target heart rate and the remainder of the interval should be at an intensity that keeps your heart rate in that bracket, jus as in the first example.
I don’t think so. If you can recover during a VO2 interval your going too easy. You won’t hit target hr during the hard start but it will help you get there faster.
This is what I was going to say. One the HR is dropping after the hard start, which to me would say he’s recovering during the sustained part. The other, the HR continues to rise for the remainder of the interval. I’m not even sure the hard start has anything to do with it either. The 110% part could be too easy for the first person but just right for the second. If I was doing VO2 intervals, I would shoot for the second graph. I want my HR either increasing or at least staying the same. If my HR is dropping during the interval I’m either tired or not pushing hard enough.
Not necessarily. It’s no big deal if your heart rate decrease a beat or two if you are already in a productive range.
Most athletes reach VO2max between 90-95% of heart rate so it makes little sense to push further.
With increasing heart rate you will also experience a higher systemic arterial pressure (afterload or back pressure) that makes it harder for the heart to empty, reducing the stroke volume. Pushing the heart rate higher will decrease the stroke volume and make the heart work harder against a higher pressure, as you are already at max. The only thing you would achieve is to put unnecessary strain on your heart and delay recovery.
it seems to me that the person in the lower trace is struggling with maintaining the hard start… it may be that their FTP is not set correctly? or they are using a mode other than ERG to ensure compliance with the required wattage. I would guess that rider top is well within their capabilities the lower trace not so much which suggests maybe both cases are not correct for their particular threshold power, trace one too easy, lower trace too hard. Also note that lower trace the rider is not able to maintain the hard start for the duration, they fall off in every case (though they do better on the 4th try). The climbing heart rate suggests they are really working hard and the 110% is still hard for them, the upper HR trace is actually declining, they are actually recovering a bit, suggests they are not really having any issue maintaining the 110%
I would suspect that the TR response is that as long as your FTP is set correctly then these plots don’t matter and neither person should make any changes. Most importantly, just fill out the post ride survey and move on. While not the most satisfying of responses, it’s probably better than trying to read the tea leaves of HR.
