How are people finding the TR Polarized plans?

You are tired or not doing vo2 max hard enough. Yes, this is polarized conclusion;) but this can be either one. If you are doing vo2 max in erg mode - move to resistance or slope and smash the power. If your max is not elevating hr - you are tired.

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You aren’t sprinting. A sprint at most lasts 20-30 seconds and probably closer to about 12 seconds, this of course varies by person. Anything much longer than that you would have to pace. I’d consider what you’re trying to accomplish with 3 minutes efforts with long recovery intervals.

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That is basically long interval VO2 max development at 3 min HIIT efforts and similar recovery.

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Glad it sounds like the plan has been going well for you! Over/unders are definitely some tough workouts, so nice job grinding those out. :muscle:

If your VO2 workouts are feeling a bit too easy, I think you should try replacing them with some Stretch VO2 workouts using Workout Alternates as opposed to adding more intervals on top of what you’re already doing. Too much intensity could throw the train off the rails, and we like to advise being cautious when adding extra volume/intensity onto your existing plan.

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I know I probably poking a hornets nest with these questions. I am just trying to better understand POL plans.

  1. Why are the Hard workouts not Anaerobic (PL classified) in nature?

  2. Also Is there a reason why in VO2 workouts (ex. Saddle Mountain) the rest periods are shorter. With Saddle in mind why not increase recovery periods by 6 minutes to 10 minutes and the hard parts from 106% to 110% or 115%?

Thanks for the education

Why they should be anaerobic? Training anaerobic power is very specific training and if you are not a track sprinter, not very useful - especially all year long. It also comes pretty fast and you could see quite rapid improvement after a couple of sessions. Cycling is an aerobic sport and any effort longer than couple of seconds sprints has an aerobic component. For example, 1min power is roughly 50%/50% anaerobic to aerobic contribution (this can also vary). So basically improving anything aerobic you improve everything.

Good read for beginning:

More advanced talk but with a huge amount of knowledge nuggets:

By shortening the rest period you increase oxygen demand and keep it elevated. Your observation is correct - if you increase the work part, you can increase also the recovery time as this is enough to keep this demand high and elicit adaptations.

But power over FTP is highly individual and doing it by percentage is pointless as some people can hold only 105% of FTP for 4 min, and other people can do 130% for 4min. It comes to anaerobic contribution mostly, muscle composition etc. The proper thing to do is disable erg mode, use resistance/slope mode and do intervals as hard as you can. With vo2 max breathing (like a fish out of water) is the key.

Knowledge part:
VO2max – Spare Cycles - @SpareCycles is a great source of knowledge about vo2 max.

I could also recommend Empiricalcycling podcast - there is a huge set of vo2 max episodes - from biochemical and physiological point of view to training. It’s quite a complicated thing that requires listening a couple of times but then comes “aha” moment.

If you want a way easier version for a start:

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Typo ^

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Thank you - shame on me.

Increasing intensity above FTP/CP/MMSS does not appear to additionally improve time-trial performance in endurance trained athletes, while increasing interval duration (as long as it’s still above FTP/CP/MMSS) does improve TT performance by ~0.37% per additional minute, at least up to 6 minutes.

I know @empiricalcycling places a higher priority on intensity with successful outcomes, so it’s worth listening to both perspectives, and consider what makes sense for your situation.

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In fact, to throw a wrench into the POL training conversation:

We found that adding high intensity interval training above FTP/CP/MMSS to regular training performed exclusively below MMSS does not appear to additionally improve TT performance in endurance-trained athletes within a training block of 2-12 weeks. Endurance TT performance (between ~5 and ~60 minutes) improved the same either way.

However, that high intensity training did additionally improve V̇O₂max by ~2.5 mL/kg/min, which is certainly meaningful to an already trained athlete.

Any thoughts? :smile:

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Thanks for the additional information.

Looks like there is LOTS more for me to learn haha.

Maybe I am going to be dumb in asking this because it is looking for the unicorn.

Was there a look at distribution in the meta analyses of the durations used in intensity evaluations? I would think in the upper limits it would be lower duration. Vice Versa for duration was there a look at the intensity distribution used? I understand that meta is meant to remove these lurking variables. I would just be concerned if those studies used a very small distribution of the other “missing variable”.

Thanks for what you do.

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For all of us, always! :grin:

Not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but a lot of the individual details of the studies are included in the meta, which is freely available here.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/374091331_The_Additional_Effect_of_Training_Above_the_Maximal_Metabolic_Steady_State_on_VO2peak_Wpeak_and_Time-Trial_Performance_in_Endurance-Trained_Athletes_A_Systematic_Review_Meta-analysis_and_Reality_Check

And in fact, a surprising number of programming variables were found to be inconsequential to the overall results, demonstrated by low or zero statistical heterogeneity (i²), eg:

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I’ve long be a proponent of needing to do everything. I’ve never found SIT to improve TT performance except in “untrained” folks, and my vo2max approach only is part of the equation. Increasing the workload at threshold is an absolutely necessary part of the equation too.

And that’s how I get results like these (with the year before starting with me included for comparison):

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499W for 20 min :scream:

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I just started the MV Pol Base plan. I have used to do the MV SSB and Sustained Power Build earlier.
Comparing MV of both base plans, TSS is quite a bit lower in the polarized plans.

Due to less load, can I expect less “gains” from the polarized plans? Even though the hard workouts feels a lot harder than the hardest rides I would get in the SS plan, they are still quite manageable. Overall it feels like a lot less work compared with SS, which has me a bit worried about getting lower fitness gains.

My goal is to sustain power for 30-60 min climbs and smash my previous PRs from the pre-corona era. Also want to lose some weight (10ish kg by March, to match pre-corona weight). So the lower intensity endurance rides should be good for some fat burning. I am running the plan until mid-May. Pol base x 2, pol build, and finishing it off with the climbing road race specialization.

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The big bumps in TSS for the Pol plans will come as your Endurance PL increases with the long rides.

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TSS is only a measure of overall work done, flawed but it’s workig. Less TSS does not necessarily mean less fitness (despite naming convention in many software). With polarized plans you have less intensity so less tss but the plans (in my opinion) are way more sustaniable and by being more fresh you can make hard session with more quality and do more work there - that should give more stimulus for adaptations.

It feel less work because you have time to recover with z2 work. You will find many people here who have incorporated less intensity and more z1-z2 volume riding and were smashing all PBs and PRs. Of course intensity is still very important part of the equation so it shouldn’t be neglected.

You are not losing weight just by burning fat and you are not learning to burn fat by burning fat. It’s just a source of fuel to your body. You are losing weight and burning all types of calories so just riding a bike is enough. Lower intensity session have their place as they help with overall volume and more pedaling time is good for calcium signaling (another thing for adaptations). So their purpoise is that you can do more overall work with less toll on the body.

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You could at least have asked before sharing my data!

:rofl:

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If specifically targeting longer climbs, you might prefer the Gran Fondo speciality vs. Climbing Road Race, as the latter has more VO2max stuff aimed at preparing you for covering attacks, closing gaps etc. Alternatively, forget about the Speciality phase and just repeat Polarized Build if you want to continue following the TR “Polarized” MV plan structure of two high intensity workouts per week.

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So basically the athletes pay you monthly fee to spend way more money on food and snacks? :wink: I do not know if its a good deal…

And to be serious - I would say that are rather decent improvements.