Totally agree with this, as anyone that goes out for a run too hard without warming up will know.
You can run well below threshold, nevermind VO2max pace, from the doorstep without warming up and be breathing like a fish out of water and gasping, but you aren’t anywhere near VO2max, its extremely common. I see people doing this in running all the time, HR settles and stays below threshold and eventually breathing comes under control. To me this demonstrates that you can’t use breathing alone to evaluate being at or close to VO2max. Having said this just because like many things this make logical sense it doesn’t necessarily make it true. However I think it is as safe or certain as we can be, but not 100% sure, that a high HR and breathing rate is required (in maybe reasonable environmental conditions?)
Can we just make this post a sticky on the forum - there must be one of these type of posts per week…
@kurt.braeckel speaking truth bombs every time.
Above FTP - turn off ERG, go max for the time alotted, get faster.
Not always. When I do anaerobic work, for example, HR will get high but breathing never approaches max. Long threshold work, I can drive my HR to 177 (max of 187) and I’m not breathing anywhere near as hard. Conversely, I can do a VO2max set where HR might get up to 180, but by my 13th set of a block, I’m hitting mid-160s but still breathing as hard as I can, still generating the same power, still spinning at 110rpm.
While a lot of different work will help maintain VO2max because it’s aerobic, if you’re actually looking to make improvements in VO2max, that’s where you need to be providing a stimulus of maximal O2 demand without overreliance on sugar. This is where the focus on a high cadence, a longer interval time come into play. You’re trying to stimulate maximal blood return from your legs by forcing more (smaller) contractions by spinning at a high rate. This will force your heart to move more blood, yes, but doesn’t always drive HR up maximally as you fatigue throughout the block… but you can still stimulate maximal O2 uptake through breathing rate, etc. Don’t forget too that one of the adaptations you’re looking for when training VO2max is improved stroke VOLUME, not necessarily stroke rate. Part of seeing HR go down through a block is fatigue, but if you see coincident power increase or stabilization, you know what you’re doing is working acutely… then eventually the wheels fall off and EF/power and HR all trend downwards (or CNS fatigue hits in a big way) and it’s time to pull the plug.
So when I program these, I tell my athletes to focus on cadence primarily, power secondarily, breathing. I look at HR after the fact… having them sit and try to hit a certain % of HR is often going to be an exercise in futility… they might not be able to, or conversely, they might do it and limit themselves to that HR unnecessarily depending on fitness/freshness.
So yes, I’d agree that you need a relatively high HR and a high breathing rate to be working VO2max. High HR or XX% of HR is not enough because there are a billion ways to get there.
Remember too that when you’re focusing on training one thing, you’re also training other things. There’s no magic button to push that says “NOW you’re training VO2max… OH! NOW you’re training threshold.”
There are just different ways to create a stimulus that focuses on certain things more than others. If you wanna train VO2max, you want maximal breathing (and necessarily high HR). If you wanna train Max Aerobic Power, you need to be doing high power. But doing VO2max work will elicit some gains in MAP; training MAP will (sometimes) stimulate gains in VO2max.
I don’t think that has much to do with warming up or not. I just think that’s people not knowing how to pace themselves, and I’m not really sure it’s a great example. I’ve run for three decades and never experienced going out and running at a sub-threshold pace getting me anywhere close to VO2max style breathing. n=1 for sure, but I can’t relate to this.
No one is advocating using “breathing alone”. I’m advocating using “breathing primarily”. But do I care if someone gets their HR up to 88% or 95% of max doing VO2max work? Not really, no. If they’re doing it right, HR will necessarily be high… but as I mentioned, you can drive your HR up without achieving max O2 uptake because a large part of the reason we breathe and elevate HR is to remove metabolic byproducts (CO2), not just to intake/uptake O2.
It’s just the name of a power zone, as you progress the intervals get longer and harder. The easier ones prep you for that.
Quoting myself here… I remember the first time I did VO2max workouts in TrainerRoad back in I want to say 2017. I had gone to bed ready for the worst the night before… as a former track runner, I was used to sets of 800s and 400s and 200s till I wanted to puke to work VO2max, never breathing that hard before in my life.
I did the old TR MV plan workouts with VO2max and was like “that’s it?” Spencer +2 was the first one that got me even a little bit. And then I did a short power build and those were pretty good… but I think the biggest thing TR lacks (and it would be nearly impossible to write this as a TR-style workout where you do structure at XXX% of FTP for everyone) is proper VO2max training.
And I think that explains why a lot of athletes that come to some of us as coaches after doing %FTP based plans see some immediate gains from blocks of proper VO2max training. Everything is primed, but you’re kinda at your current ceiling and haven’t done the right stuff to raise it just yet.
That to say, if you’ve stagnated on TR FTP/SST plans, maybe try their short power stuff. I’m not stumping for all of you to hire coaches… just to do things that are going to challenge/stimulate MAP (VO2max??) a bit more when the time is right.
… or hire me, that works too. 
Has anyone considered VO2max intervals on an assault bike or airdyne? With the arms moving you should be able to put in more time at VO2max overall while needing to push less watts through the pedals.
I can definitely feel how powerfully my heart is beating, sometimes. I would think this correlates with relative stroke volume (as a percentage of maximal stroke volume).
The sensation of a heart beating rapidly but not very powerfully is quite different from that if it beating powerfully but not very rapidly.
The thing is, I swear it used to be harder. Back in the day, low volume plans had me doing a lot of three and four minute intervals that were properly intense.
Since levels came out, things changed. Real VO2max training doesn’t start until about level five or six. Traditional 5x5s are nowhere to be found below somewhere around level seven.
The only hard Vo2 workout I have been made to do was only hard because I did it outside (so no ERG, and it was at higher and higher altitudes) and because it the sheer number of intervals.
Back when I did TR plans I junked the stuff that was in their plans and did my own custom VO2max blocks based on their workouts. I think I started with 5x3 and progressed that to 7x3 then some longer stuff. I’d do it differently now… but to me coming in with some fitness and familiarity with VO2max training prior, doing Taylor -2 and the like was a waste of time.
I stopped using TR before adaptive training when I had time to start programming for myself, so I can’t speak to any of that.
As someone relatively new to VO2 max workouts (and structured training in general), I’ve been reading this and wondering how this applies to me. As I’ve thought about it, it seems like the consensus is that VO2 max is not about a percentage of FTP and that we need to target the maximum repeatable power (just to regurgitate wording a number of people have used).
That’s all well and good, but how do we get there? As someone new to training in this zone, it seems like it would be really easy to pick wrong and blow up. I can absolutely imagine some future point where I’m experienced where I can tell by RPE what’s sustainable. But I find this especially hard to do because my max sustainable power is different on 30/30s from 50/50s (todays workout) or 40/20s, and also potentially from multi-minute efforts (I’ve only ever once done those before deciding to try out TR). That power will vary by the number of intervals within a set, and how long the rests are between sets. Or so I would guess at least.
And that’s where adaptive training should come in (I say ‘should’ because I haven’t been using it long enough to know for certain). Both preparing us for true VO2 max efforts, but also helping us find it without going to far and blowing up.
For those who are critical of TR, let us know if there’s another way to get there without something like adaptive training (or if you find it doesn’t actually work like I’m hoping).
What is a typical range of duration for this experience (per interval)?. My most recent session, it was the last 45secs of a 5min interval. Outside, I’ve done extended bouts of “fish out water” at the end of races or going for KOM’s.
I reckon that accumulating even 10min of this experience in a session is very challenging.
Tr has a good library without needing to create a workout that is probably already there.
I’ve starred my favorites so they now come up easily in the search.
For progression of 3 minute intervals this was the final 3 weeks of ssb2, ending with a pl of 8. AT will get confused though if you aren’t close enough to target and probably consider these as high failure rates, but imo dropping power a bit the last rep or two doesnt diminish the goal of a 6x3 minute workout.
Don’t over think it just push as hard as you can if you blow up so be it you’ll have started to get an idea of your capabilities and you will be less likely to blow up in the future. I’d recommend not doing them in ERG but resistance mode then you’ve got more freedom to push a little harder and, if it happens, blow up without worrying about it.
I’ve just gone through this myself, and honest answer is that’s where turning off erg mode comes in and just giving it a try. Looking at my 5x4min workouts my AVERAGE power was about 115%. But what I’d do is start with a hard start where I spin up over 130 rpm for 10-15 seconds, drop to 115-120 rpm after that, and try and hold it 115 for the remainder of the interval with the goal of getting ready to crack and start losing power right at the end of the last interval, but if I start dropping much below 115 and can’t hold it, downshift again and try and bump the cadence up. For reference, I had my trainer set where 115 rpm would put me right at that 115% FTP area but that could be different based on what I can handle vs. someone else. Feeling strong, spin faster, cracking - cadence drops or drop power/downshift.
There’s some feel to it that you don’t develop when you only ride in erg mode. Blowing yourself up or coming out too hard can teach you what you’re really capable of that you don’t really develop just riding TR workouts in erg all the time.
You just go max.
But if I were you, I’d just follow the TR plan. Just because TR puts a VO2max label on the power target doesn’t mean you should be going max every time you see that label.
Thank you for pointing this out. The idea of being able to tell if you are having changes in stroke volume at a moment in time would come down to a feeling of changes in milliliters.
Yeah, it can be hard to get that sensation for much more than 10 minutes. Done right - the way I’ve done them the last four years or so and the way I prescribe them (IMO) - I start breathing fire about 2 min in, +/-. So on longer sets I can get up to 12 or so minutes breathing like that, and then on shorter sets like 7x3 it might only be 6-7 minutes, but it’s still a stimulus.
7x3 is usually the last round or two I prescribe when people are really tired. Conversely, it’s also one that I’ll use as the second set of a two-a-day or back-to-back days for people who’ve never really done it before.
In general, I’d prefer most sets to be 4 minutes or more because it does take some time to “breathe fire” and you want that going for as long as possible. That said, it’s probably not possible for most people to do 6 or 9 sets of 4x5 or 5x5 minutes like that over the course of 2-3 weeks without wanting to throw their bikes in a river.
Absolutely something that happens to just about everyone. But you don’t get your first 20 min test right the first time… you probably don’t nail your first 40K TT. As with all things, there’s learning involved.
I coach VO2 sets with some flexibility. I always program them via trainingpeaks so that people that use TR/Zwift have something to follow. I use a 1:1 work:rest interval, but I tell my athletes that the rest is flexible, and to take more if they need it to get quality reps in, up to 2x interval length. When I do these, I usually am taking 1:1 at the start and then by the end of a day I might be taking 1.5:1. It’s OK.
Dialing in things like the hard start and what works for you can be tricky. If you’re anaerobically inclined, you want a shorter hard start and to make sure you’re not blowing yourself out. If you’re less anaerobically inclined, a longer hard start will help get your HR and breathing ramped up.
Then you make sure you’re focused on the right thing: cadence. Too often people get wrapped around the axle about power, when cadence and going as hard as you think you can is more important. Once you get that fire breathing sensation, you know it… and you know if you successfully replicated it or not. After a few sets, most people get it dialed and can make adjustments on the fly, just like most other workouts.
Feel free to DM me if you want more info. No reason you can’t use a TR workout to do these, but you’ll just want to turn off erg mode and manage the effort yourself.
The issue is that there is a longer discussion required. The term “VO2max” refers to several things, and it’s easy to get lost in the weeds if you are new to structured training.
Since you are new to structured training I’d say it’s better to follow the plan, focus on consistently riding your bike/trainer, and don’t use the word failure when looking at completed workouts. The biggest “mistakes” you can make is to a) not consistently ride your bike/trainer, and b) not slowly increase the amount of time you ride from year to year. The details and forum debates are far less important.
I sometimes will give stuff like 30/15s or even 30/30s just to get used to intensity first, but it’s like one or two sets and usually for people I’m worried may not handle big intensity well right off the bat. Otherwise, rip the damn band-aid off and here’s your 3x6 or 4x5. 