Another calculation that puts you in the ballpark, to give you an idea of the ceiling (and what % of that ceiling your FTP currently is).
watts (.01080 + mass (.007) = liters/min
L/min * 1000 / mass = VO2 estimate
take a 4-5 min steady state stretch on a 5-6min max effort, preferably after a previous long zone 5 “blowout” effort (like the Coggan 20min test has the 5min blowout before it).
Here is a 5min effort last night. Did 11min @ 385w before, then had 5minutes recovery before this effort.
(and when you look at that hideous cadence, you’ll see that I do short (4-10min) 5-5% climbs in the big ring, and standing a fair bit – I just don’t get the same power spinning, and yes, I worked on that for years before giving up on it and just thugging the big ring around)
Same formula, but the problem with that one (sometimes) is that the anaerobic contribution can still be too high for some, even if you snip the spikes at the start and the finish.
Doing a good 8-10min effort first helps reduce that. If I do a 5min completely fresh, I’d have a steady-state line of about 410w, not about 395 – and based on lab tests, I’d say that 410 would overestimate VO2 max.
Just my anecdotal bias, but I think any short test of aerobic capacity needs a blowout to get a good aerobic number. Too much anaerobic “noise” otherwise.
Sorry to dig up an old thread. So if I look at a relatively recent ramp test, my 5 minute power was 377 watts. My FTP was calculated at 310, which may be correct, may not be correct. If I do the math, 377 is about 121% of 310, which would tell me I need to be doing VO2 max workouts that look like what?
If I’m reading this I’m hearing I need to be doing intervals at 377watts, regardless of what my FTP states. And if my FTP is correct, that would be something like Spencer +2 for each workout, which is a 7.7 workout level. If my FTP is inflated, then I still need to work at 377watts, but that would mean I need to find workouts HARDER than Spencer + 2 to get a higher percentage of FTP. Is this right? I mean, I find Spencer +2 to be one of the hardest workouts I’ve done and it was a bit of a crusher each time, how does one sustain this or am I wrong assuming all workouts need to be at MAP? And what about shorter intervals, like 60 sec, 90 sec, 2 minute? Should they be above MAP?
And my VO2 Max PL is only at 6.2 right now. It was at 7.2 a couple weeks ago after mostly completing Bashful+5, but I ramped down my VO2 in my plan because it I was about over it.
You are wrong assuming all workouts need to be at MAP [emphasis mine].
So you know how we (cyclists, triathletes, etc) base some intervals off of FTP (sweetspot, threshold, over-unders, etc.)? Most of those are not done at FTP…they are based off of FTP. “Off of” really just means they are close in terms of percentage.
The nomenclature of “maximum aerobic power” misleads us into “power at VO2max” thinking, which is not a thing. You want to ride at a given power AND duration (BOTH!) that elicits the state of maximal oxygen uptake (a physiological response). The “about 5 min power” part is what is supposed to help you construct a set of intervals that will elicit the state at which maximal volume of oxygen is taken in, delivered to and consumed by working muscles (i.e. VO2max). Why so wordy? Because ppl say and think “VO2max power” all the time and it’s meaningless. It confuses a metabolic state with a mechanical state.
A bunch ppl can and will respond with all manner of how you figure out whether you’re doing the intervals the right way and which ones to do in the first place to drive aerobic capacity. Hard start, slow component, “all out”, panting, “i just feel it, bro”, “I use WKO5”, “my coach tells me”, “TR labeled them as VO2max”, etc. All that is great and there is more than one way to skin it. But you have to understand the above first.
Actual answer:
MAP gives you a number to test against after doing a block of training, and it can give you an anchor against which to construct zones (because for many ppl it happens to be about 5 min power).
Yes, I understand the time component because I’ve been reading these threads. However, the tool we (I) have is Trainerroad, which provides me a structured workout. I picked Spencer +2 out of the air because I remember feeling like I was going to die when I did these workouts, which I assume is the feeling we’re after. It’s 3 minutes instead of 5 minutes, but doing it for 5 minutes x 6 seems out of my league at the moment. I guess I’m trying to figure out how to pick workouts. Do I have to feel like I’m going to die for each workout? If so, I presume they would all need to be in the realm of a VO2Max 7.7 to make me feel that way, assuming my FTP is set at 310.
Or can I work at a percentage of MAP, but not feel like I’m dying and get the adaptations. It sounds like I need to feel like I’m dying every time to improve it.
And perhaps you are going to say forget about the power targets and just ride as hard as you can until you feel like you are going to die for as long as the workout says, and may that’s what I need to get. But I’m a big fan of ERG so that’s gonna take some getting used to.
Worth a read of Guy Thibault’s work around MAP based interval training. Some in the link below
Worth noting that he uses the Canadian ramp test of 3m steps of 25-30w, so a lower number than a TR test. He has a model showing how intervals at different %'s of MAP, at different durations and for different #reps can be ‘equivalent’ in terms of load and ‘difficulty’. He also talks about using intervals at 85% MAP to build endurance while 95-105% of MAP will build MAP etc.
The “about 5 min” thing is because that is theoretically your max 5 minute effort. That’s all out and too hard for a set of intervals of this type (time and place for that, too). So ride that power target for less time (say 4 mins) per rep.
Also, TR should have what you need. Filter on “VO2max” and look for 4 min efforts. See if the power target is in the ballpark of 85% MAP. You might have to adjust a bit.
Edit: just read @Bigpikle response and that is where I pulled the 85% from (Guy Thibault)
So last week I did Mindego. It was hard, but not like I was dying. It’s 5 minutes at about 88% of my estimated Map. I guess that is good. More like Mindego would be okay, but that was also just 5.5 efforts. If I had to do 8 of them like Bigpikle suggested it might be harder, but maybe doable. I guess then the challenge is, where do I find those in the TR library, or something comparable. I don’t want to have to create all of my own workouts.
Thibault produced a simple free app called 3-2-1 Go. Couple of free MAP based intervals and for $3 Can you can get the other 15. Some interesting interval suggestions there fr targetting end, MAP and anaerobic power.
what’s interesting is that the graph tells me Spencer +2 is off the chart and thus might explain why it’s so hard for me. It’s basically 100% of MAP for me. This would recommend that I do 0 of these!
For me it would suggest about 3 x 5 rather than 6 x 5 @95% MAP, but worth remembering the 3m ramp test he uses will give a lower MAP than a TR test, so maybe that changes things?
The thing you’re doing here is establishing a baseline:
You need to look at the session afterwards and count the number of mins above 90% MaxHR. Too few and you need to bump it up or go longer per rep. Too much (like you can’t complete workout or you reached actual MaxHR) and you need to dial down. In ERG mode you’ll have to be quick on the trigger.
Don’t flog yourself. It’s about time in zone at VO2max. See if you can get 12-15 mins total and progress from there.
You can play around (later) with 90% MAP or whatever percentage as long as you adjust duration. The trick is getting those TiZ minutes
Sorry I no longer have access to TR library (otherwise I’d just throw some workout names at you), but if I remember correctly you can filter on “VO2max” and a duration. You’re basically looking for 4-5 min efforts. Nice thing about TR is you most def have got a workout that will match (or be close enough). Like you said, you just gotta find it.
Maybe pluck from one of the speciality plans (Road Race speciality). What we’re recommending you start with is pretty common, and it cuts across many cycling disciplines.
I would also add that 5 min power from the ramp test might not be a fair representation of 5 minutes ‘flat’ power. I know personally I can get to ~500w for the final minute on a ramp test which gives me about 460w as 5 min power but holding 440 for 3 minutes is very tough - I find the TR 120% for 3 min intervals like Spencer very difficult.
I think the other comments cover the physiology and power level aspects, all I would add is that you can get used to VO2 max intervals and get much better at them quite quickly. There’s obviously a big fitness element but another key to it is understanding that you can carry on at that level for a surprisingly long time if you remain committed. The key is to try not to panic as you start panting and feel short of breath. Easier said than done but once you realise this they feel a lot less intimidating, and that’s coming from someone who used to dread getting on the bike for these kind of workouts. Try to see that VO2 max breathing as a positive thing - it means you’re getting a good training effect.
