Will give that a listen for sure. I guess it’s like anything with Trainerroad’s plans: because they’re catering to thousands of different riders with different physiology it’s impossible to get right for everyone but 120% of FTP is a fair estimation of an effective 3 min VO2 max-stimulating effort.
Some good advice I got from someone in this forum was to do those intervals without erg mode. The main reason being that you aren’t tied to the recommended power but can go on feel if it’s too hard i.e. going on breathing not power. The other advantage I find is that they feel easier without erg; I have a habit at high intensity of subtly mixing up the cadence which creates added resistance on ERG mode as it compensates to avoid power fluctuation.
For respiration rate I find it’s pretty obvious when I’m at VO2max because it’s loud and I struggle to comprehend anything beyond breathing and turning the pedals
Two final questions for now. How often should I test MAP and how much should I expect it to move? I’ve heard vo2max is somewhat quick to improve but wasn’t sure if that is as a % of MAP and MAP being kind of a wall you need to breakthrough. Thanks!
Because the opinions here suggest that MAP is more representative of your VO2Max than a percentage of FTP. However, since TR uses a percentage of FTP for all it’s workouts, I have to do a little math to figure out which workouts are an appropriate percentage to coincide with my unique MAP.
There is no magic VO2max power. One can achieve VO2max at any power over threshold. The higher the power, the faster you get there. You can go too high though where you die before you hit VO2max (like in a sprint).
I’m just not sure MAP testing is worth the time/effort unless you are following MAP interval prescriptions.
If one distills the Kolie Moore VO2max prescription, it’s hard start, high cadence, and go max. If you are breathing hard then you know you got there.
Yes, I’ve studied the Guy Thibault stuff in the past. I thought you were doing TR workouts? It just doesn’t seem very compatible with Thibault training prescriptions.
Well I haven’t really sorted out how to solve for this since I just heard about it yesterday. It’s going to probably be a combination of me creating some custom workouts to match the prescriptions here and me knowing the math to translate TR workouts to the prescriptions.
For example, a buddy of mine did Foerster -1 this morning. It’s 50 seconds on 50 seconds off x 24 @ 125%. Assuming my MAP is 377, 125% of my FTP is about 103% of MAP. If I look at 50 second intervals at 103% of MAP I get somewhere around 21 intervals with 2 minutes rest between. Foerster actually seems to exceed that prescription, which I’m assuming would be fine and advantageous in this instance. So will just take some time to make that translation a little easier and obviously it will change if my FTP changes or my MAP, but just trying do better VO2Max workouts, not achieve perfection.
Its also worth noting that the Thibault stuff was published quite a while ago, like 20 years, when power meters were not common and most people certainly weren’t training with power data in front of them. One thing that he found was that people were generally able to self pace them really well by just knowing the session prescription eg tell them they are doing 21 reps of 2 mins with 2 min rests, and they generally did a really good job of maximally pacing them to complete the session when data was reviewed afterwards. I mention this as Thibault also talks about the benefits of simply doing these sessions without power data - dont try and follow an exact prescription but simply get on and ride your reps going by feel and rpe etc. So perhaps don’t sweat the exact MAP-FTP conversion and just get on and go.
I think many people have simply never done that and have never actually tried to self pace efforts rather than rely on erg mode or a screen with a number in front of them - I bet many people here never trained indoors without a smart trainer or power meter of some form. It’s like my son (and now me sadly) who cannot seem to navigate a route in the car without a satnav barking out directions, when I used to drive hundreds of miles with only a sense of direction and landmarks I think there is benefit in doing these intervals like that and how people have talked about vo2 work and just worry less about riding to a target. You’ll soon know if you are riding the first few of 22 reps a little too hard and then adjust.
If you read any of the Steve Neal content then you’ll see he suggests thats how his riders aproach this type of work, and this from a guy who is all about the lactate, moxy and lab work for much of his training prescription.
And this is the prescription used in a lot of studies on the effectiveness of different high intensity intervals.
Yup. And regarding Steve Neal and self-pacing vs erg, the same comment applies to Frank Overton and he also performed a lot of lactate testing on athletes in the past.
yep - all this fuss about TR ramp tests, FTP estimates and here we are in 2022 suggesting that someone could train really effectively simply by self pacing some HIIT and getting out and doing long rides based on RPE…shock horror!
and in case anyone finds this uesful, I cut this table out of a pdf on using MAP training. Remember its almost 20 years old and pre-dates univeral power meter ownership, but makes for some interesting reading and thinking
Note - MAP is based on a 3 min 25-30w step ramp test NOT the TR 1 min
Was that in conjunction with taking blood samples? The original MAP with blood was two minutes steps and one minute without and different ramp rates for male, female, and your average Joes. Ric Stern who came up with the test protocol was pretty puzzled when Zwift started promoting a 3 minute ramp test and calling it MAP.
Interesting, on my VO2 max session last night a few intervals I was happy I had pushed to that state where it seems sustainable but the second you stop bang and you are gasping for air (what I would class a good VO2 max interval ) but on others I never felt I pushed to that level but on review there was only a marginal difference in the power
When I wake up I’ll have a listen to it if I remember
While Ric is a pioneer of training with power, ramp tests have been around in many forms for many years. MAP can be determined in a number of ways which is why its important to always talk about numbers in relation to the testing protocol used to define them.
Google Guy Thibault and you’ll also see his history. He used the 3 min ramp test protocol, perhaps because he’s Canadian and that is/was the protocol used by them at the time when he was working with them and publishing early work back in the early 2000’s.
The term MAP was well established before Ric Stern. For example a 1982 study validated that a cycling ramp test resulted in MAP that was a valid estimate of maximum aerobic power (VO2max) obtained using a treadmill.
That 1982 ramp test used 1-minute steps, and each minute increased power by 37.5W. They noted that lactate was higher on the treadmill, but highest HR was similar.
Which brings us back to your point… I’m not familiar with the “original MAP” that used blood lactate with two minute steps, and one minute without lactate.
There is a study from the 1950s that used a cycling ergometer but back in the day cycling ergs didn’t use watts to measure output.
All good though.
I think there is benefit in doing these intervals like that and how people have talked about vo2 work and just worry less about riding to a target. You’ll soon know if you are riding the first few of 22 reps a little too hard and then adjust.
VO2 max interval ) but on others I never felt I pushed to that level but on review there was only a marginal difference in the power 
