Given the state of modern cycling at the end of the 2024 season with many more riders jumping into LT1 / Z2 steady state training , it’s fairly safe to say that in the senior categories most if not all riders have done some kind of targeted z2 training following loosely or closely to the ideas being shared around the internet.
This thread concerns the future as athletes look to leverage their z2 gains and become the most competitive build possible for the sport.
So begs the question, with highly trained endurance athletes who are completing 1000TSS weeks 5h z2 rides w/ mixed sprints, 3-4h z1/z2 rides etc week after week, is there a plateau effect waiting up there wherein the athletes have become so oxidatively powerful that their base levels of muscle mass do not drive sufficient levels of lactate production to take full advantage of this large oxidative capacity.
The idea of needing to raise VLAmax as the season turns from base to build is already documented, this however would be a more novel approach, understanding that VLAmax on a per muscle fiber basis can only be so high, the only way to sufficiently raise VLAmax to be in balance with monstrous base training would be by gaining muscle mass.
In other words, could a highly trained athlete raise their effective V02max by increasing their muscle mass , and is this the effect that we are seeing with Jonas Abrahamsen who allegedly gained almost 20kg and was then in contention for the KOM jersey of the tour.
The idea being that without the extra muscles in the legs he was not able to deliver sufficient load to his highly trained base systems and as a result had a lower effective vo2max unadjusted
I was under the impression that the whole notion of VLaMax has been debunked already. Or at least is out of vogue.
Also, was Jonas Abrahamsen really in contention for the KOM because of his “VLaMax” or just because he was in every break and no one else really really cared?
Abrahamsen was seriously under weight for his size and probably eating disordered. It’s great to read his story and see success at a more normal weight for him.
Pog is looking pretty ripped. Strength training seems to be working for him.
Not yet. I’m three years into basically only zone 2 with some Zwift and outdoor races. I love these rides and never do less than 20h/week. Never done a proper interval. LT1 180 75kgs to 250 at 64 kgs and still getting stronger. My FTP doesn’t match but is still >340.
Sounds like you would be a good candidate to enter into a study testing increases in key metrics after gaining muscle mass. Those numbers are insane though, grats.
I’m interested to know based on the numbers you’ve recounted, how has the approach you’ve taken translated into on the bike performance.
What have you seen and experienced over time, in terms of noticed improvements in a range of things such as segment KoMs (assuming you try for them), average speed on similar routes at a given HR zone, race wins or podiums, time improvements on the same TT course etc?
I mostly do local gravel races that tend to be attritional with no elite-level riders. I don’t ride a lot of gravel in training and have no confidence in my bike handling skills, so I’ve always done the same move off the front solo from the gun. In terms of performing against folks who actually put in as much time as me, I’m trying to make time to go to bigger races this year. My life/family situation is such that it is very easy to peace out for a morning ride all the time, but a whole weekend off for a bike race is tough. I also just…don’t care that much? I just really like riding my bike.
The other stuff you mention has all tracked with power, I think.
The biggest change for me since I got back into the sport a few years ago—I took off in my 20s/early 30s but trained extensively when younger—is my ability to process food. I usually do 700-800 calories per hour on the bike, which was unimaginable a few years ago. It’s fun to eat junk food, and it’s a pain in the ass to fill back a 2000 kj hole when I want to focus on my job/life after long rides. My guess is that my natural desire for fueling well for these practical reasons probably allowed me to happily sustain a lot of volume for a long time.
What kind of junk food are you eating to get down those 7-800 cal/hour? I find sugary stuff like sweets are pretty good for fueling lower intensity efforts (gut is definitely a lot more forgiving at z2 than at sweetspot!), but more savoury food with higher fat content doesn’t go down very well.
I do a base homemade Maurten mix for most of it, so the gas station food on top is not a lot. Agree about the fat and desire for a savory mix. I don’t have a good answer, I usually stick to candy personally. If I am motivated to bring something, Jelly Belly is great because there are so many flavors.
So, in a classic self-aggrandizing move I will no doubt put to good use on my family this Thanksgiving, I seem to have derailed this thread and somehow made it about jellybeans.
I think this is a fantastic question, and in my limited but not altogether terrible knowledge of the literature, I don’t think we really have any insight into this. I would certainly be down to try it on myself!
My hot take, as a scientist in a different field with no actual knowledge on this topic, but that isn’t going to stop me from opining, is that effective VO2max would certainly increase and is tied in some somewhat linear way to body mass. But I don’t think the mechanism you are suggesting, where it is about force/load, makes too much sense to me. I think it is probably some higher order central governor-esque phenomenon in which a lot of energy systems and energy management in the human body is fundamentally tied to body weight.
I also find this anecdote very interesting, but I think he probably changed a lot of things at once. One of them was muscle mass, and another was probably chronic under-fueling to maintain a body weight that didn’t actually work for him. And I’m not sure how much each contributed to his current gangster status.
I’m down to actually try this if someone can tell me what to do. I like the gym, and I can put on two kilograms of lower body mass with some extra Uncrustables by Christmas.
Quibble/soapbox: VLAmax isn’t a good endurance performance marker in spite of INSCYD marketing otherwise, so I quibble with the “already documented” part because it’s not really all that well documented and accepted by exercise physiology as a whole body performance marker (like VO2max) in the way that INSCYD and some others want you to believe because they have financial stake. This is largely due to the fact that VLAmax is muscle-specific, thus how can you possibly know VLAmax in the same way you know VO2max. We can measure VO2max for your whole body, relatively easily. We can’t do that with VLAmax, except through field testing… so what you’re doing is essentially testing your sprint power comparing it to another performance marker, and calling it something science-y.
To the point of your post.
Relative VO2max is measured as a function of bodyweight (ml/kg*min). It’s driven mostly by a couple of things:
There are genetic ties to all of this, but we can’t do anything about that. Also, we can throw out the first two for this discussion.
There’s no question that MORE muscle mass means MORE muscle cells means MORE mitochondria to uptake oxygen at the cellular level. Absolute VO2 uptake in larger animals is necessarily quite a bit higher than in smaller animals, but Relative VO2max is where the aerobic performance gains are.
The part Absolute VO2max this ignores is that pesky “per kg” marker of Relative VO2max. VO2max as a performance parameter is not weight agnostic, and muscle tissue is quite heavy. Relative VO2max is usually higher in smaller/leaner animals. Pronghorn antelope have VO2max in the 200-300 range, where lions are just above your average trained human. As pertains to endurance performance, added body weight is generally not performance-enhancing, certainly not for runners or climbing on a bicycle.
In general, when you are weight training, the majority of hypertrophy will occur in your fast glycolytic (IIx) muscle fibers, with a smaller amount in your oxidative muscle fibers (I and IIa). The Slow Oxidative muscle fibers (type I) are the primary drivers of O2 uptake at the cellular level during aerobic exercise, and are also the least affected by hypertrophy through weight training.
The bottom line is: Any gains in Absolute VO2max are likely offset by inefficiencies and additional load generated by simply carrying around more muscle of the “wrong” fiber type for improved aerobic performance. Abrahamsen’s performance was quite likely due to him just being a healthier and better-fed human being.
*** I am NOT an exercise physiologist, but I sometimes pretend to play one on the internet.
Interesting, so no Sweet Spot?….How’s your 5min vs FTP power?
While I roughly agree with your description. What’s interesting is the amount of evidence of good training plans/results using this “paradigm”. I’m not saying the good results are because of VLMAx, but perhaps in spite of it……so it can’t be too detrimental (financial cost aside)
To quote Andy Coggan, “All roads lead to Rome.” The work those plans have you do based on “training VLAmax” is hardly revolutionary and boils down to “train your limiters based on the performance profile you need for your event.” It’s nothing that isn’t done by people all over the world all the time with nothing more than a power distribution and training history, in my opinion.
The financial side of it is what bugs me. Companies testing and touting VLAmax are simply collecting money for something that isn’t necessary, again, in my opinion. I had lengthy discussions with INSCYD back when I was starting up, as I could’ve become one of two “licensed” testers here in an area with more than 5million people and a hotbed of endurance sports, and I opted not to because my general rule is that I try not to charge people money for things that I don’t think are going to benefit them in any measurable way.
What do you think the effect of a threshold / VO2 block - at an appropriate point in your training calendar - might be on your overall performance in those bigger races?
