My first full sus XCO/XCM race bike

This weekend I raced the British National Championships Marathon XC, 80km of hard racing over 4 hours. I was really happy with my performance from a placing stand point, and a big thanks to my TrainerRoad training for that!

Almost immediately I started dreaming about racing on a full sus bike and by the end of the race I’d almost bought myself one mentally and was ready to order something on the drive home, given how battered I started to feel and how much yoyo-ing I did with people on more capable bikes throughout the race.

At the start I was mixing it with a solid group but started to drift out of the back of the group in the most frustrating places - 1) on gnarlier downhill sections and 2) extremely dry and bumpy climbing sections across a grassy field - in these situations I kept yoyo-ing back to the group and could get back on when the course smoothed out and got less technical, but on the pedally bumpy sections everyone around me was sitting smoothly pushing over a smooth cadence in the saddle while I was getting battered around on my hard tail hovering over the saddle and trying to keep the power going through the rear wheel.

So onto the bike ideas. I currently ride a 2018 Specialized Epic HT in a size Large. Playing around with my position over the years I’ve ended up very comfortable on the bike with a 110mm -17 degree stem and a pair of 700mm bars. I’ve always been quite sensitive to being cramped up on a bike and ended up wanting to stretch out a little further than the stock setup and have found this stem and bar setup right for me. I like narrower bars for the sort of close pass local races I do.

Taking the geometry figures from a 2018 HT that arguably I’m running in less modern setup (long stem) and working out what fits and how to tune the fit of a full travel bike is a little daunting, and then brand wise I’m largely thinking about what will be good from a simplicity and maintenance stand point. The Epic having a creaky PF BB for one thing I’m glad that the world has moved back to threaded BBs by and large.

My initial search and thought process and what is appealing to me aesthetically has landed me looking at a Santa Cruz Blur CC in the regular 100mm travel version. I’m definitely someone who likes riding with a lockout and things like the new Epic WC and Supercaliber seem a little too proprietary and daunting to me.

Working out sizing for a Blur seems tricky and there an awful lot of threads on the internet that suggest the Santa Cruz’s tend to be a little shorter than most when picking the labelled size (e.g Large). Playing around with various geometry comparison tools I’ve also found a little daunting because I’m unsure how stack and reach convert from hard tail to full travel bikes, and for me personally I’ve found that I am much more sensitive to effective top tube length and how my back ends up laid out on the bike.

From first glance, at 185cm tall, and based on how I have the 2018 Epic HT in Large setup with a 110m stem it seems like a more modern approach for my would be to get the Blur in an XL and run a much shorter stem. The XL blur having a 25mm longer head tube suggests I might end up being slightly more upright, even if I run something like a -20 stem. Conversely I’m worried that if I get the Blur in L and end up slightly undersized I kill the bike from a handling perspective if i end up running a 2010 era 120-130mm stem on the thing.

Size stats for the geeks:

----------- Reach - Stack - Effective Top tube - Head tube
Epic HT ---- 441 --- 622 ------ 623 --------------- 110
Blur in L -- 470 --- 597 ------ 616 --------------- 110
Blur in XL - 495 --- 612 ------ 647 --------------- 125

Would love thoughts and advice on sizing (it seems very hard to go find test rides) and any other bikes people think are worth looking into that are pretty traditional, have simple stock parts, threaded BBs and probably UDH is a must now too.

Aside from your frame of choice, and in relation to the two areas that you were losing time and positions your choice of 700mm bars and long stems can be affecting your results just as much as being on a hardtail vs a full suspension bike.

Shorter stems and wider bars improve your control of the bike. Higher control equals faster speed.

As for full suspension bikes, pick the one you like the look of best. In the price range you’re talking, they’re all much the same. XC bikes have all converged to flex stays, so ride performance is not as disparate as one would find in enduro bikes.

I’m 178cm, and wouldn’t look at riding a bike under 450mm reach. But I also wouldn’t go over 475mm.

Unless you’re Nino, I doubt sitting more upright is that bad of a thing. Your center of gravity will be better for descending straight away for one thing.

Some bike sites, such as Canyon, have good size calculators based in several body dimensions rather than just height. Use their recommendations and their bike geo to get an understanding of the better bike geo for you and transfer this knowledge to other bike brands.

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If it helps, I’m the same height as you and on an xl blur. Fits me perfectly, I thought it was going to be too long but it’s a great. Absolutely love the bike too.

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I was in a similar boat. I’m 186.7cm and I’ve been on large mountain bikes most of my life. Last 2 years I owned the 2021 Specialiized Epic and Epic Evo in large. I ran a 90mm stem with 25mm rise and on both to get the fit right. I’m now on a XL Blur with the stock stem and handlebar. I’m within a couple mm of bar height and back of saddle to handle bar length from my Epics in large to Blur in XL. It’s better handling as well.

What inseam do you have @Chiefgief ?

35in inseam

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Thank you @Northshorerider, still doing the calculations and will keep this thread updated!

Thanks @handynzl. I had a play around with the Canyon sizing calculator for the Lux. I think their sizing calculator implies some extra sophisticated logic given it asked for inseam (I’m 33” inseam at 6’1”) but if you look through to the sizing chart view there is no overlap between sizes and it appears they just use the inseam measurement to suggest a saddle height and to ensure that you will be able to fit on the bike.

Interestingly from the Canyon calculator I’d be squarely on the Large frame of the Lux.

My current calculation process and study of different geometries goes something like this.

Hard tail vs Full sus: nearly all the major brands have +15mm reach and +20mm stack when comparing their full sus bike of the same labelled size to the hard tail equivalent.

Modern geometry: if I take my current hard tail and compare it to the 2022/3 frameset, Specialized have increased the reach by 15mm. So let’s say that all comes out of my stem to retain the same position, that would still leave me on a 95mm stem. Adding in the extra stack and reach (+20mm stack and +15mm reach) to look at an equivalent full sus bike that gets to a reach and stack that perfectly matches the Large blur, albeit with a slightly shorter effective top tube.

Modern stem length: with that in mind, if my current fit translates to a 95mm stem on a Large blur, then it very much looks like I should size up further to the XL, which is an additional 40mm reach. Again if I assume I want to take that all out again via the stem to retain the same fit, the I got 95-40=55mm.

Given the blur has a steeper seat tube angle than Specialized I think I’d end up retaining the same position with a 60-70mm stem, and height wise the stem would be a -20 rise and slammed, which I think from a modern geometry and handling standpoint is the right thing to do, assuming my napkins calculations are correct.

There is something daunting about ending up a frame that is too big rather than too small. I’m going to hunt down some test rides on L vs XL bikes (a Specialized dealer will be easiest to try)

I’ve attached a pic of my current bike to show off the relative attributes of saddle height, stem, etc

Thanks @Chiefgief

You can use madscientist calculator to get a pretty good illustration of geometry differences and what stem/handlebar etc you could use to achieve different positions.

A 90mm stem isn’t ridiculous if you’re picking the Blur/regular Epic version of each bike. You could easily achieve your current position on a Large (and looking at this it looks like the right option.

I’d always err towards the TR / Evo version, and in that case it may be more prudent to size up. As above, wider bars will help some.

The fact that all these bikes are measured w/o sag is crazy. The numbers change quite a bit when you sit on the bike.

Here’s what I’d do:

  1. assume spec kept the fit the same.
  2. compare your 2018 HT to a current HT. (You’ll see the new bikes stock stem is -10m)
  3. then compare the current Epic ht to FS
    Use that to figure out what the stem length delta is old to new geo
  4. now only compare the Current FS to the Blur

Thanks @mailman, awesome tool I’m playing around with it now. My friend who builds bikes recommend BikeCAD if I want to model in even more detail.

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Thanks @jfranci3 - I mentioned that logic above, copied below.

Your point on the TR version is also a good one, I hadn’t thought about getting a more down country build but the reach shrinks a reasonable amount with a 120 fork on the Blur - I’m not sure how that really translates when you’re sat on the bike given the similar increased travel at the rear though.

Aesthetics is obviously a part of any bike building decision, and I must say something about Maxime Morrotte’s bike with a slammed -20 FSA stem in a 60 looks really cool. I was searching around for examples of modern pro builds and handle bar + stem choices - it seems only MDVP and Sam Gaze are the main protagonists for retaining those killer 120-130 stems on their XC bikes

IMG_2357

I tried to set my new bike up like that, but because I’ve sized down it’s just too short to run the 60. I’ve got a Hope 70 coming that will be pretty swish.

As far as sag goes, it’s hurting my brain a little, but isn’t the front triangle fixed and considering stack and reach are measured from the BB they won’t change?

100% HTA and STA change with sag…

Am I wrapping my head around this.

ETA: going only off your pictured bike, I’m picking you have a long torso, given you utilise the steeper STA of a modern frame, and you’d like to run ~760mm bars and a shorter stem, perhaps you should go XL.

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If you can’t testride a bike bikeinsights.com is a pretty good ressource to see how different frames compare: Compare: 2017 Specialized Bicycles Epic Hardtail Comp L vs 2022 / v4 Santa Cruz Bicycles Blur XC, Carbon, 29er, 100mm Fork, 100mm Rear L - Bike Insights

Obviously the best thing would still be to sit on a bike in a shop and do a lap on the parkinglot to see how it is and maybe book a testride over a weekend. I wouldn’t necessarly size up just because you don’t want a long stem. It’s not just about reach and stack. You should focus more on toptube length than reach and stack as reach is measured the distance from BB to the headset. Bikes have become longer and slacker thus increasing the reach but not necessarily the distance from saddle to handlebar. That’s what you should compare.

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Canton also uses the measurements to estimate torso length. I know because I have a longer inseam and shorter torso, and their calculator puts me on smaller frames.

But per another point in this thread, that may not affect you since you (probably) have a longer torso relative to height…

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Have you considered a Scott Spark? FWIW I went with the Scott Spark RC as my XCO/XCM race bike. The main reason being is I see it as one bike that can do everything. It has 120mm travel which is overkill at some races but the Twin-loc lockout allows you to lock it out to 80mm off travel front and rear.

I’m 6’ 1” with 34cm inseam and I’m on an XL. My bike fitter/LBS owner mocked up both the L and XL and i was pretty cramped on the L.

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Choosing the Blur XL instead of Large is the best bike buying decision I have ever made.

I’m 186 and was previously riding a Scott Spark 2017 (previous generation) in size Large. On the Scott I was sitting on top of the bike, and now I’m sitting in the bike. It’s a great confident booster. I can go faster because I feel safer. The same people who said 29-ers are boring might say that «it’s more fun with a small agile bike that you can throw around», but racing is about going fast, and going fast is also fun.

I was using 90 mm stem (reach incl. stem 54,7 cm) on the Scott and I’m now using a 50 mm stem (reach incl. stem 54,5 cm) on the XL Blur.
Yes, the stack is a little high, but If you get a Syntace Flatforce or similar you should be able to get pretty low for fast gravel grinding.

I have upgraded to 120 mm front and 115 mm rear (with remote lockouts) because I do a lot of trail riding. If you mostly do (XCM and XCO-)racing a dropper post is way more important than the extra travel. Both SID Ultimate 100 mm and 120 mm are amazing forks.

Best thing abut the Blur is that you don’t have to spend more time in the workshop than on the trails. Threaded BB, UDH and simple easy maintenance is the reason I chose the Blur. I’m never buying Scott again …

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Just to reinforce Magnusc’s point about a dropper post, you will find this game changing, especially on courses that are becoming more and more technical. I have a 100mm drop on my xc bike and even this small drop makes a big difference and also an increase in bar width and shortening of the stem. Dropping to say 90mm stem and 740mm bars

Just to update everyone, since I hate a forum thread with a question but no conclusion!

I’ve unfortunately been sitting out injured but while I wasn’t riding I managed to pick up a very discounted Epic Evo in XL.

The bike arrived a couple of days ago and getting the tape measure out and comparing to my hard tail has been quite interesting. The saddle tip to handle bars on the XL with its stock 60mm stem still comes in a whopping 5cm shorter than my hard tail setup. I’m quite sensitive to being bunched up on the bike so that is one of the main measurements I immediately looked at.

Other noticeable attributes off the bat:

  • The stock 150mm travel dropper I have to set almost fully inserted into the frame to achieve my desired saddle height - 150mm is quite a large dropper travel though so I may swap out.

  • The bike sits a good 1 1/2 inches higher at the fork crown with the 2.4” tires, 120mm travel and reduced offset compared to my hard tail.

  • With the stock bar and stem the front end is a solid 3 inches higher from the ground.

Comparing the bikes side by side I’m a little reluctant in my choice if this ends up being my pure race bike, but the entire bike was less than the base model frame of the likes of the Santa Cruz, S-Works Epic, Scott Spark etc, so if it ends up a bit big I think it’ll end up being a fun down country bike anyway.

More to come once I’ve recovered from my injury!

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