🎉 New Video! 🎥🧑‍🔬 Science-Backed Nutrition Plan for Cyclists | Cycling Science Explained

I’m not even that worried about power. I think if one is trying to lose 25lbs, then the focus probably has to be on the weight loss and maintenance of fitness as best one can. Hard workouts or build phases seem incredibly difficult to pull off while restricting.

At first look, the first study looks depressing for those wanting to lose weight. Gaining a pound of muscle and losing a pound of fat sounds great and all but is that even practical for someone wanting/needing to lose 25lbs? How can one maintain optimal energy availability and still lose 25 pounds? (Rhetorical questions)

My other thought was that a 900kcal deficit in a female sounds like a large restriction - the equivalent of a crash diet.

The hot take from the first study was that the low energy group lost 1.1 pounds of muscle. But not all fat free mass is muscle, right? I know that Stronger by Science has done some deep dives on maintaining muscle while restricting. (It seems possible with adequate protein and continued working out.)

It’s hard to see a way around the hit on the basel metabolic rate if one needs to lose a lot of weight.

4 Likes

Yeah, that is crazy. I wonder how that study tracks on a more reasonable 400-500 cal deficit.

I’m having a hard time following this advice from a practical sense. It’s pretty darn hard to count calories accurately everyday and couple that with that getting an accurate BF%, this seems almost like guessing to even start. With the reliability of power meters, getting a somewhat accurate calorie burn is pretty easy, but what about the rest of your daily activity? I just don’t see being able to use this as a reliable tool. I’m 5 8’ and 144 and my Withings scale says I’m 15% BF. Is that accurate? I have no idea!

Whenever I lean down, I just try to do it slowly by feel over time and make small adjustments. I don’t think I’m ever in huge calorie deficits per day for long as my mood and energy levels will tell me and I’d adjust. As long as you are seeing a trend in the right direction on the scale, you’re probably doing it pretty well.

2 Likes

I’m not sure we can get many practical ideas from this study.

I’ve just been reading some of the study. They chose the 25kcal per kg of fat free mass based on the literature showing that that level women would be in a state of low energy availability which impacts hormone levels and health.
(The question is what is the level for men. Is it the same?)

So it seems:

stay out of low energy availability (no crash dieting)
could use a calculator / spreadsheet to come up with some calorie numbers.

maintain relatively high protein levels

That’s all I can see from the first study.

My question is about replacing the calories I burn during workout.

Would this entail all activities? I have an apple watch and can get a ballpark daily energy expenditure. So would I eat to match those calories or does OEA involve having total daily energy expenditure (TDEE) within it as well? That is, is OEA basically your BMR + TDEE?

1 Like

you don’t need to be perfectly accurate to have some good takeaways

I’m probably 12-15% body fat - that makes 58 or 60 kg fat free mass. That gives:

At 58kg FFM 60kg FFM
30 cal/kg 1740 1800
40 2320 2400
45 2610 2700
50 2900 3000

Pretty close with 12-15% body fat. That’s also reasonably aligns with the calorie goals that I got from previous TDEE calculations.

You don’t have to follow calories or macros all the time. Take a few days when it fits your life and see how you align, it’s enough to see if you are ballpark right. For example, I learn that I need to eat more and take care to get protein with every meal.

2 Likes

Personally, I’ve found that adding 100% workout calories back to my daily restricted calorie budget led to very little weight being lost. Maybe half is the way to go?

1 Like

@Bones this ^^^ for a handful of practical reasons:

  • you can’t exactly count calories
  • your can’t exactly measure calories burned

My advice:

  • do the math and treat those as first estimates
  • follow the trend line of your weight after waking up. Don’t obsess about day to day variances.
  • adjust portion sizes based on weight trend line and estimated calorie burns from workouts

Personally I count calories for a week or two, about once a year, to recalibrate my brain on both macros and portion sizes. We eat similar meals all year, so that works well for me.

3 Likes

Maybe I didn’t express myself very well, when I said “I’m having a hard time following this advice from a practical sense.” I didn’t mean I was actually trying to follow the advice, I was just imagining trying to follow it!

I agree there are some good takeaways from the study - like I said, I have no issues getting lean slowly over time when I commit to it - I don’t need to count calories and do calculations. I simply eat well and fuel my rides and go to bed just slightly hungry. This method ensures I don’t run large deficits and lose weight too quickly.

Edit: My point was: trying to count calories and doing math around nutrition is not very accurate and you are better off going by feel and eating (very) well, and making sure you fuel rides properly.

2 Likes

thats my point too, although it helps to periodically do some basic math on macros and calories and portions.

1 Like

I did watch it pretty soon after posting, and @Jonathan asked for votes for a calculator!

Though, it does seem like a lot of people have a hard time going by feel.

I’ve read most of the 2nd paper now. The over-riding theme here seems that you want to keep EA above 30 kcal/kgFFM.

Yes, math is hard for some people but it doesn’t take more than a napkin ballpark calculation to get an idea of one’s base calorie count.

Without math, I’d interpret all of this to mean that you really shouldn’t try to lose 2 pounds per week (1000 calorie deficit per day).

I did the basic calculation (estimating body fat % based on photo charts on google) and for me, even trying to lose 1.5 pounds per week puts me below 30 kcal/kgFFM. 1.25 pounds per week seems to be right on 30. 1 pound per week is maybe the safest course.

And FWIW, I did start a new weight loss plan last week. I did set my app for 1.5 pounds per week and on some days it’s been tough - hungry, cranky, low energy. I did a workout with some sprints (5 x 30 second) and I was wasted for two days.

I have not been adding back all of the Kjs burned on rides to my daily budget because when I’ve done that in the past I have not lost weight. Several days per week I’ve been going over budget by a little. I may start adding back 1/2 the workout calories and see how that goes. Or, change the calorie budget to 1 pound per week.

1 Like

Everything nutrition is very n=1. Fwiw i do track inputs and outputs and find i get expected results. I did this from 125kg down to 70kg. Tracking works for me. IF works for other’s. Going by feel works for some people. How is not a prescriptive thing.

There are so many calculators on the web. I’m not sure how TR programmers would add value. It seems like the thing to do would be to make a spreadsheet for oneself.

Body fat percentage is the big question mark. Jon said that he thinks his Garmin scale is accurate enough. I did my napkin calculation using this kind of chart.

2 Likes

I did the spreadsheet! Fwiw my impedence scales also matched a dexa too (not garmin scales).

1 Like

Any recommendations for an impedance scale? Basically I’m trying to discern whether any differences between a:

$150 Garmin

vs.

$70 Withings (good review on DC rainmaker)

vs

$25 Wyze smart scale (or any other cheaper alternative - Wyze also got good reviews on some other site)

I could honestly care less about all the connectedness, Apple health integration, blah, blah, blah … I’m wondering if the impedance function is basically the same on all of them.

My original withings WS-50 lasted a couple years before moisture in the bathroom killed it. They offered me 25% off a new unit which was generous considering I didn’t have a proof of purchase. I went with Garmin anyway, and it has been going strong for 3-4 years now.

Ive had this $70 one since 2019 with no issues
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071XW4C5Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

1 Like

So been thinking about this all day. My biggest question is this, “does this study suggest that the most successful strategy for fat loss is a high energy flux diet?”

That is, a diet whereby you meet your caloric restriction through increases in activity rather than focusing on caloric restriction through lack of calorie consumption.

Here’s what I mean

Given the study in the video, the experiment confirms that there is a lower bound to your caloric intake that, when you go even lower, causes to to lose both lean body mass and fat.

If this is true, then the lower bound suggests that caloric restriction can only be used to a point until it becomes harmful. That is, you cannot go lower than this and not cause loss to muscle in the diet.

For example, if you are 75kg at 30% body fat, you have 52.5kg of lean body mass. At an OEA of 30, you have a suggested daily caloric intake of 1575. Going lower than this will cause all the bad stuff mentioned to occur.

Now this amount, should you diet with caloric restriction only, should put you into a caloric deficit. Using a BMR calculator found here and assuming a height og 5’9", tyou have a BMR of roughly around 1717. Assuming sedentary lifestyle, you have an additional 344 calories of activity. Meaning your overall Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE) is 2,061 calories. The net difference is thus 486 calories.

So, at most you can expect to lose almost a pound a week while ensuring you don’t lose muscle.

Thus, if you want to lose more weight (ideally fat) at a faster rate than this lower bound, you inevitably need to increase your caloric expenditure to increase your daily caloric burn.

So, for example, say you decide to do a daily 1 hour walk (which is one common thing many people who succeed in losing weight do) and you burn an extra 250 calories. Should you not make up with larger caloric intake, that additional 250 calories will lead to increased fat loss.

This ultimately suggests that the more successful programs need to not simply claim “calories in and calories out” but rather “reduce calories to a point then increase activity to speed up fat loss”

Naturally, if your are performance focused, you need to balance the increase in calories due to training with recovery through increased caloric consumption. Thus in that case, you have to go through the more complex calculations of how much calories to consume to perform optimally in workout and how much to consume to adequately recover out of your work out. This is when the calculations get more complex.

Am I off base here or is this how I should think of it all?

If this is correct, then it would be better to use this study to suggest what is your caloric lower bound and to focus your efforts on increasing your activity if you want faster weight loss.

1 Like

From an old Dexa Thread I have the Tanita BF680W that Nate was comparing to Dexa, unfortunately no longer available and not sure what current models would be similar, but the Tanitas are always decently priced so possibly also worth looking into.

Looks like I bought it about year after my last real BF% test so I never had any direct comparison like some of the TR staff did but having had a bunch of tests previously did always feel it was decent for tracking.

1 Like