OK, but considering the claimed “policing” above, it sort of muddies the waters. This confusion has happened a handful of times over the years and I try to make it as clear as I can when I take on that role.
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really if you want to get the best info go to a good source ie the US CDC website or other government sites for food regs. There are a number of reasons to avoid unpasteurized milk:
If you are one of the at risk groups the risk is of course higher. If you have a robust immune system the risk is lower.
Because my experience has been completely different and maybe due to luck or ignorance I have not suffered any ill effects from drinking raw milk for years. Or maybe the dangers of raw dairy are overblown…
I will also add that being of northern European descent, I have all the gene(s) to metabolize dairy with no ill effects or sensitivities.
I know people here in Canada and in the US who go out of their way to buy raw milk (sometimes illegally) for the health benefits.
Yes. To some degree I am asking this. I think it is common knowledge that nutrition science is not perfect, has been affected and funded by various lobbies and interest groups. One study promotes fats and keto. Another study carbs and vegans. Maybe non-pasteurized dairy has been smeared in the same way?
I’m wondering if anybody else has had experiences, good or bad, consuming raw dairy.
this comparison could be a very slippery slope.
I think many normal people can more easily relate to anecdote than trying to read and interpret scientific papers. I wouldn’t discredit other people’s experiences so easily.
Hello @Marek, this is a great topic to discuss, but as @mcneese.chad mentioned, it would be best to merge it with the already created post by Jonathan as you’re discussing specifically the Podcast he posted.
I also want to give you an official warning as your behavior doesn’t follow Forum Guidelines, in specific #1 Be excellent to each other
Examples of not being excellent to each other:
“Thanks forum police. To me it seems like you’re looking for a problem where there isn’t one.”
“So what is your problem with me posting the question? People like you policing the forum just looking for problems make it unpleasant.”
“Why don’t you add context or your opinion of you disagree with what I posted. Don’t accuse people of misleading or inflammatory comments for no reason.”
As mentioned, we have the flag feature, or you can contact a TR rep if you have any concerns/problems.
I also wanted to clear any potential confusion about @mcneese.chad 
While not a TR employee, he is one of our Forum Moderators.
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I merged the separate post about milk into this one, as requested by TR.
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That was a great episode! 
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I disagree…there is a lot of the same reasoning / “logic” used in both discussions. I am not saying they are the same people (but there is certainly some overlap).
No one is asking anyone to “read and interpret scientific papers”…just listen to the experts who have already done that (or even written the scientific papers themselves).
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Fair point. I just don’t want this post devolve into something else.
I disagree with this. Science is constantly being re-examined and updated. I think there is value in people’s anecdote. At one point when @Nate_Pearson was training he said he would take in 200g/carbs per hour and felt great. But strictly looking at the science that 80g extra either did nothing or should have cause GI distress.
Back to the milk. I was hoping people would also share their experience if any not regurgitated outdated guidelines.
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I think most people focused on their health will be wary to try something when the CDC warns “raw milk is one of the riskiest foods. People who get sick from raw milk might have many days of diarrhea, stomach cramping, and vomiting.” I understand you have a different experience, but I wouldn’t expect many people to take that risk if they didn’t grow up drinking it and don’t live somewhere that it is common.
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Food safety is very much a numbers game. 1 in 10 000 could get sick, which is nothing (for example, not an actual statistic). But if you have a population of 300 000 000 then it becomes a problem. Unpasteurised dairy is relatively high risk.
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OK, then there i no point in discussing this any further. If you think personal anecdotes are of more value than the recommendations of experts, that is your choice.
I’ll just note that you never bothered to actually respond to the articles I posted which clearly outline the risks associated with drinking raw milk. If you have any data contradicting those reasons, feel free to share it.
No one is saying “If you drink raw milk, you will absolutely get sick and die”, they are saying “There is a substantial health risk in drinking raw milk”. Just because you drank raw milk in Poland and did not get sick does not alleviate the risks of drinking it…it just means you avoided those risks.
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I was pretty disappointed by how unenlightened the views were on this episode. With the glaring lack of nuanced thought on food and health studies, they should have just left it alone. For example, how long has it taken to figure out if coffee is good for you or bad for you? Is there even clear agreement now? This stuff is complex and saying we measured the vitamins in conventional vs. organic and there’s no difference is showing a lack or understanding about the limits of what we can easily measure to say the least. I could go on but I’ll leave it there.
Full disclosure, my kids drink raw milk and are little beasts.
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I was pretty disappointed by how unenlightened the views were on this episode. With the glaring lack of nuanced thought on food and health studies, they should have just left it alone. For example, how long has it taken to figure out if coffee is good for you or bad for you? Is there even clear agreement now? This stuff is complex and saying we measured the vitamins in conventional vs. organic and there’s no difference is showing a lack or understanding about the limits of what we can easily measure to say the least. I could go on but I’ll leave it there.
Full disclosure, my kids drink raw milk and are little beasts.
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Hey, @Marek. Just giving you a +1 for this. I’ve never had raw milk but I drank gallons & gallons of fresh milk when I was a kid. I didn’t like milking but I sure enjoyed drinking the milk. Store milk would give me hives so it was fresh milk or no milk for me. My friends would ask for fresh milk when they came over because it ‘tasted like ice cream’.
I’ve never known or been told about anybody who got sick from drinking fresh milk but I guess it happens in the US because most consumers in the US are really scared of fresh milk. Either way I don’t drink any milk these days…just thought your comment was interesting. You’re not the only one with this experience.
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The germ theory of disease is pretty well established at this point. Unlikely that the fundamentals there are going to be overturned.
Pasteurization isn’t about avoiding GI distress, it’s about reducing the risk of bacterial disease. Apparently, the risk of raw milk making you sick increases a lot once you have to transport the milk for sale. As I understand it, if you know the farmer/cow and they’re running a pretty clean operation, the risks are low. If you’re trying to bottle milk to sell in a supermarket or whatever your risks go way up; pasteurization is a good idea here. yeah, it kills some good bacteria and changes the taste a bit, but it makes it way less likely that some bug in the milk is going to send someone to the hospital or grave.
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I don’t think this has been said yet here…
On the podcast, they did specifically mention that raw milk is something they would suggest everyone avoid except (maybe) those who have direct access because they live on dairy farms. I think that’s very important context for the objections that’s been raised. Drinking raw milk is still a risk even then, but less so.
Even pasteurized milk is one of the foods that will turn the fastest, raw milk can turn faster, and the longer it’s been since it came from the cow the more risk it is. Not all raw milk will have bacteria that will make you sick (if it only has less dangerous microbes it may just turn into sour milk which can be used in place of buttermilk), but if the worst is the case, then the longer you give the bacteria to multiply, the more dangerous it become. Though even very new raw milk can still be dangerous. It’s really a question of how much a dangerous strain of bacteria there is. Very small amounts (how small differs from bacteria to bacteria–and there are a lot of different types of bad bacteria that can get into raw milk) can usually be handled by the immune systems (though the young, old, and immunocomprised may have trouble even then), but when it’s had time and conditions to reproduce, it gets to be more dangerous. That assumes that the raw milk had some of that bad bacteria to begin with, but it’s very very hard if not impossible to be certain that the raw milk you have does not have bad bacteria.
Pastuerized milk is nutrtionatally just as good, but if you want to find milk that tastes closer to raw milk, it can help to find a smaller dairies (if your lucky enough to live near one). There are many different ways to pasteurize milk (ignoring ultra pasteuriztion for the moment), as well as other processing steps undertaken by bigger producers that can affect tastes (just like many other types of food can be better from smaller producers).
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I know several people who lived into their late 90’s and even over 100 year’s old who smoked their whole lives. Therefore cigarettes must not be bad for you. That’s an anecdote. And it also happens to be true. There are smokers who live very long lives and don’t appear to suffer consequences from their smoking. Does that mean that we should rely on these types of anecdotes over reams and reams of evidence to the contrary?
The same science that says that the above anecdote isn’t worth anything in regards to general public health advice/information, says that unpasteurized milk is not the best idea for general public health. If you don’t think that the smoking anecdote carries any weight regarding the health implications of smoking, but you then turn around and point to anecdotes to justify your belief that unpasteurized milk is generally safe, perhaps you should ask yourself what your bias is in this regard.
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