Hey there, does anyone know or understand the logic of why the first Threshold workout in Polarized Base is a 3.2 consisting of 4x7min at ftp! Isn’t that what I’d want to progress towards, not start from??? Irrespective of adaptive training, I still find many of the plans simply start from an unrealistic basis…… especially for sprinters like myself who struggle with the longer threshold sets. Starting with a 3.2 is not motivational. Curious what others think and do……
Unless the recoveries are extremely short 4x7 is a very simple ftp workout if your ftp is correct.
FTP is something you should be able to hold for ~30m to ~80m. Splitting the lower end of that into 4 intervals with rest what I would consider to be an entry level ftp workout to start your progression from.
11 Likes
Thanks for the reply. Lucky you - this has never been the case for me. As a comparison, the progression levels at Threshold in the General Base programme increase at a much more sedate pace. Polarized works for me in principle, but I always have to substitute out the Threshold workouts. These are also supposed to be base workouts afterall
I mean there is a large variation in how long people can hold ftp and there are outliers so I would not be absolutely shocked to see someone with a 25m tte at ftp but even then 4x7 is 28m split up so should be a doable workout.
Regardless the ai should adapt based on the survey answers and there are alternates if you want to progress the ftp work a bit slower.
5 Likes
The logic it two-fold: if your FTP is set correctly, that should be an easy workout. Full stop. Moreover, polarized base ≠ easier than sweet spot base. Especially the first iteration of polarized plans were (for me) a lot harder than sweet spot base since also the difficulty was polarized. Rather than easier/harder, you had very easy/very hard.
TR revised those plans and in my experience only the first workout tends to be very hard.
4 Likes
How are you setting your FTP, and can you describe for us the “hardest” threshold or sweetspot workout you’ve successfully done at that FTP?
2 Likes
In polarised plans, the hard days are supposed to be HARD
As others have said 4x7 @ FTP doesn’t really fit that definition.
In his many videos / papers etc. on the subject, Seiler is often associated with 4x8 @ 108% as being a suitable hard day workout
4 Likes
I feel your pain as I’m in the same boat. Depending on what protocol you have used to determine your FTP, it’s likely your anaerobic capacity has inflated your FTP to some extent.
There is one FTP test where you take 90% of the average power from a 2x8min intervall set. Based on that, it’s reasonable to assume that you will benefit from setting your FTP some 10% lower than the current setting. Unfortunately this will result in easier workouts in the VO2max / anaerobic domain. You may need to select harder alternate workouts initially, until PL catches up.
Just something to consider - are you concerned about being able to complete the 4x7’s or are you concerned that it’s the starting point of something much harder? For me, any interval above sweet spot is hard, even the “easy” ones. And I’m a guy who can hold threshold for a long time, but it’s still not pleasant.
Right or wrong, I always have a bit of “interval anxiety” during the base phase for anything harder than sweet spot. Part of that is that I haven’t done any hard intervals in months, but probably a bigger part is that I know how hard the upcoming build blocks will be and I feel like I’m starting to burn mental and physical matches before I’m ready.
I am about 2 weeks away from the end of my base phase and just did my second set of over/unders yesterday (5x10’s, 5.1 progression). They looked scary, but were very manageable. Hard work, but never a question of whether I’d get through them and I felt great afterwards. I’ve been doing intervals for many years and you’d think I’d embrace them at this point, but I still get anxious when it’s time to get into them. Once I’m on the bike and doing the work, it’s fine and they almost always feel great afterwards. I’d suggest jumping on the bike and trying to knock out the 4x7’s. If you struggle, the worst thing that can happen is you have to dial things back.
1 Like
I’m a sprinter as well. I’m sorry but 7 minutes is not a “longer” interval. 4x7 should be pretty doable if your FTP is correct. 3x10 is the shortest Threshold block I’ll even start at. As in, if I’m struggling with 3x10 I know my FTP is wrong. Or that I’m extremely fatigued or underfueled.
How did you calculate or measure your FTP?
5 Likes
I do ramp tests but I can always eke out extra ftp by going full anaerobic and dropping cadence. I can also last longer on Threshold by doing this (ie mid 70rpm). I’ve heard elsewhere that you shouldn’t let your cadence drop in an ftp test….
This is exactly what I’ve been doing
It’s pure about being motivated to be honest.
Sounds like you are a more anaerobic/strength rider. A ramp test is going to inflate your FTP. You can either lower your FTP setting in TR, or just lower the percentage when doing FTP workouts. Or, just turn off erg and do the workouts as needed.
3 Likes
My guess is that this is causing an overestimation of your FTP. You likely have some anaerobic contribution that is inflating your FTP. Which then makes longer aerobic stuff like Threshold very difficult. Easiest answer is to drop your FTP and try the 4x7 again. If you still can’t finish them drop it more. Like I said in my first post, if I failed a 3x10 @100% I’d know my FTP was set too high. You have to leave ego at the door.
5 Likes
FTP is two dimensional, it has a power value and TTE. If your TTE value is so low you struggle with 4 x 7 mins, sounds like the power value is inflated. Reduce your FTP power value to get the TTE in the right ballpark.
1 Like
Don’t worry about the workouts looking or feeling too hard or easy if you’re a new TR user. Make sure you answer the survey correctly at the end of the workout and adaptive training will adjust your future workout in consequence. After 10 workouts you’ll get an AI FTP detection and I would continue with that FTP.
Cheers!
2 Likes
I enjoy and mostly only do polarized training. Endurance workouts or threshold/higher. I love the short/hard intervals, probably because they are never that hard for me. The threshold intervals can put me through its paces very easily.
As much as this sucks (I’m with you on the 4x7), it makes it this much MORE important for you to do these threshold workouts. To date, I don’t know that I’ve ever not been able to actually complete a TR workout suggested in one of the programs, but some of them have occasionally been “all out.”
Fortunately, the threshold workouts in polarized plans aren’t more than once a week, and obviously the high intensity days are incredibly critical. I would just go into it knowing it’s going to suck but you CAN do it. If you’re physically unable, then as others mentioned, your FTP is likely set too high.
Last year I did 3, 20 minute FTP tests, every few months. Later in the year I began relying on AI FTP. Since I seem to excel so much in the shorter, higher power workouts, I have a feeling that the ramp test could be easily skewed for me. I feel that the 20 minute FTP tests are reasonable.
1 Like
Yep - seems ftp too high. Like you, I also find VO2 easy because I can just power through those workouts. I tried Polarized a year ago (been injured) and I felt I made huge progress with longer outdoor rides of low intensity, but on VO2 specifically, when I made sure my cadence was above 90 it was WAY harder than powering through at 80rpm - especially after about 1minute in. I felt that really pushed me on. (For Threshold I never used the suggested polarized workouts and instead picked some from corresponding weeks in Sustained Power Build). Might be worth trying if you find VO2 relatively easy
Hello!
If a workout seems like it’s too difficult/easy on a given day, we’d recommend using Workout Alternates to find a session to sub in. You should be able to use it to find something a little more suitable to what you’re looking to start out with.
Hope that helps – feel free to let us know if you have any other questions!